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Pro-lifers: Justify the government telling pregnant women what to do

Patriotic Voter

Patriotic Voter

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Women have many reasons to get abortions. Most of them are legitimate. The only reason to do it that can be ignored by society is a medical emergency, which is not common. No woman or girl who lacks the time, money, and/or ability to take care of a baby should be forced to deliver it anyway. No woman or girl should be forced to suffer the next 8-9 months of her life knowing the baby will never know her and just bounce from one foster home to another. Why do all pro-lifers want this for children? Why do they think the government should decide for pregnant girls and women who will live and die? Why doesn't the government treat pregnant girls and women with the care, respect, and dignity they deserve during the most stressful times of their lives?
 
Blue Donkey said:
Women have many reasons to get abortions. Most of them are legitimate. The only reason to do it that can be ignored by society is a medical emergency, which is not common. No woman or girl who lacks the time, money, and/or ability to take care of a baby should be forced to deliver it anyway. No woman or girl should be forced to suffer the next 8-9 months of her life knowing the baby will never know her and just bounce from one foster home to another. Why do all pro-lifers want this for children? Why do they think the government should decide for pregnant girls and women who will live and die? Why doesn't the government treat pregnant girls and women with the care, respect, and dignity they deserve during the most stressful times of their lives?
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The posts from the party of small government should be interesting. :popcorn2:
 
What is the primary responsibility of government?
 
Blue Donkey said:
Women have many reasons to get abortions. Most of them are legitimate. The only reason to do it that can be ignored by society is a medical emergency, which is not common. No woman or girl who lacks the time, money, and/or ability to take care of a baby should be forced to deliver it anyway. No woman or girl should be forced to suffer the next 8-9 months of her life knowing the baby will never know her and just bounce from one foster home to another. Why do all pro-lifers want this for children? Why do they think the government should decide for pregnant girls and women who will live and die? Why doesn't the government treat pregnant girls and women with the care, respect, and dignity they deserve during the most stressful times of their lives?
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I think the answer is obvious... Pro-lifers don't see this as the government "telling a woman what to do", but rather the government "protecting an innocent life".
 
Blue Donkey said:
Women have many reasons to get abortions. Most of them are legitimate. The only reason to do it that can be ignored by society is a medical emergency, which is not common. No woman or girl who lacks the time, money, and/or ability to take care of a baby should be forced to deliver it anyway. No woman or girl should be forced to suffer the next 8-9 months of her life knowing the baby will never know her and just bounce from one foster home to another. Why do all pro-lifers want this for children? Why do they think the government should decide for pregnant girls and women who will live and die? Why doesn't the government treat pregnant girls and women with the care, respect, and dignity they deserve during the most stressful times of their lives?
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Just an aside, Blue Donkey: You seem to imply that the lives of children who are in the foster care system or those given up for adoption are not worth living. Are you for the euthanasia of children who are orphans or whose parents do not want to care for them, or are unable to do so?
 
Grim17 said:
I think the answer is obvious... Pro-lifers don't see this as the government "telling a woman what to do", but rather the government "protecting an innocent life".
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The government is already protecting innocent life.
 
Grim17 said:
I think the answer is obvious... Pro-lifers don't see this as the government "telling a woman what to do", but rather the government "protecting an innocent life".
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The only thing an abortion law can be is the government telling girls and women what to do.
 
Felis Leo said:
Just an aside, Blue Donkey: You seem to imply that the lives of children who are in the foster care system or those given up for adoption are not worth living. Are you for the euthanasia of children who are orphans or whose parents do not want to care for them, or are unable to do so?
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What I am thinking about is government money, actually. If a child is put in foster care, who pays? The government, of course. Every baby who is put in foster care through a county's publcly funded children's services organization is eating up our tax dollars.
 
Blue Donkey said:
What I am thinking about is government money, actually. If a child is put in foster care, who pays? The government, of course. Every baby who is put in foster care through a county's publcly funded children's services organization is eating up our tax dollars.
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...Wait a minute. As a conservative and someone who nominally considers himself a decent human being, of all the things that I might complain about my tax dollars being wasted on, caring for children in foster care and welfare programs is not one of them. How is it that a rock-ribbed Republican like me is saying this to someone who claims she is a liberal? You do not believe that tax dollars should go to those vulnerable people unable to care for themselves like children? In what way do you consider yourself a liberal, if I may?

EDIT: I need to point out that I am pro-choice on the basis of the unique danger presented to women due to pregnancy. I just find most of the ancillary arguments that so many pro-choice people use to justify their stance utterly fatuous if not outright immoral.
 
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Claims to be a liberal? I am on the left side of every political issue (obviously including abortion).

I do not believe tax dollars should go to bad people caring for kids until they don't want to anymore. Adoption agencies need to do a better job making sure the couple who "wants a baby" adopts one immediately, not just fosters kids for a while and passes them on to someone else.
 
Grim17 said:
I think the answer is obvious... Pro-lifers don't see this as the government "telling a woman what to do", but rather the government "protecting an innocent life".
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What is the woman guilty of? And why isnt the govt protecting her life?

"Her life" is already contributing to society, a clear better investment for society since the unborn may not even survive til birth. At least a quarter are lost to miscarriage.
 
Blue Donkey said:
The only thing an abortion law can be is the government telling girls and women what to do.
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Lursa said:
What is the woman guilty of? And why isnt the govt protecting her life?


"Her life" is already contributing to society, a clear better investment for society since the unborn may not even survive til birth. At least a quarter are lost to miscarriage.
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Look, I just answered the question posed by the op...

Pro-lifers see abortion laws the same way they see laws against murder. They believe that just as the government has every right to say a husband can't kill his wife, they can say a woman can't kill her baby.
 
Grim17 said:
Look, I just answered the question posed by the op...

Pro-lifers see abortion laws the same way they see laws against murder. They believe that just as the government has every right to say a husband can't kill his wife, they can say a woman can't kill her baby.
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Yep. Except they aren't killing babies.
 
Grim17 said:
You must be desperate for attention... Find somebody else to play with, I'm not interested.
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Having a discussion is asking for attention? Then I guess you are desperate for attention too.
 
I don't know about 25% of pregnancies resulting in miscarriages, but it usually happens early. Women don't always know they are pregnant yet.
 
Grim17 said:
Look, I just answered the question posed by the op...

Pro-lifers see abortion laws the same way they see laws against murder. They believe that just as the government has every right to say a husband can't kill his wife, they can say a woman can't kill her baby.
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Yeah sorry. Just throwing those out there.
 
Blue Donkey said:
I don't know about 25% of pregnancies resulting in miscarriages, but it usually happens early. Women don't always know they are pregnant yet.
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Why do you always question our data and never provide anything to counter it? It's actually higher but I'm at work and dont have the link.

We've been posting here for a long time and have most of this stuff saved.

And plenty of miscarriages happen once a woman knows. That's why so many wait until the 2nd trimester to tell people.
 
Blue Donkey said:
What I am thinking about is government money, actually. If a child is put in foster care, who pays? The government, of course. Every baby who is put in foster care through a county's publcly funded children's services organization is eating up our tax dollars.
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So you don't believe that mothers and fathers should be given a second chance to prove that they could be good parents to their children being protected by the state's foster care system? You do realize babies aren't usually put in foster care unless the custodial parent has been found to be unable to parent through gross negligence or abuse, don't you?

What do you suggest happens to these children if the children are not put into foster care? I hope you are not suggesting that foster children or children who are legally free for adoption would have been better off aborted because of the costs.
 
trixare4kids said:
So you don't believe that mothers and fathers should be given a second chance to prove that they could be good parents to their children being protected by the state's foster care system? You do realize babies aren't usually put in foster care unless the custodial parent has been found to be unable to parent through gross negligence or abuse, don't you?

What do you suggest happens to these children if the children are not put into foster care? I hope you are not suggesting that foster children or children who are legally free for adoption would have been better off aborted because of the costs.
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tt must be the mother's decision whether she keeps or gives up her baby. OTOH it is the government's job to give her resources for makink the right decision whatever it may be. The government needs to help pregnant women do the right thing for themselves even if other people disagree with them. How do women find adoption counselors decide when to make childbirth appointments? Abortion opponents need to understand her mental state and that she is vulnerable to making the wrong decision without organizational help.
 
Blue Donkey said:
tt must be the mother's decision whether she keeps or gives up her baby.
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I think that is exactly where you should have ended your thought, if you are claiming to be liberal and "pro-choice."

Blue Donkey said:
OTOH it is the government's job to give her resources for makink the right decision whatever it may be. The government needs to help pregnant women do the right thing for themselves even if other people disagree with them. How do women find adoption counselors decide when to make childbirth appointments? Abortion opponents need to understand her mental state and that she is vulnerable to making the wrong decision without organizational help.
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You are speaking out of both sides of your mouth, and appears on its face that you want the government to strongly encourage abortion in order to save the taxpayer money on the care for children unwanted by their mothers. Because what do you mean by a woman making the wrong decision? If a woman decides to keep her baby for any reason even if only to give the child up for adoption in the hope that the child finds a better life, it is HER decision, is it not? It is her body, and her choice, is it not? Are you saying that deciding to have an abortion is always the right choice for a woman, but deciding to keep her child is not always the right choice?

If that is your position exactly is that pro-choice? Should you not simply say that you are pro-abortion in cases where the child might be given up by the mother?
 
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Blue Donkey said:
Women have many reasons to get abortions. Most of them are legitimate. The only reason to do it that can be ignored by society is a medical emergency, which is not common. No woman or girl who lacks the time, money, and/or ability to take care of a baby should be forced to deliver it anyway. No woman or girl should be forced to suffer the next 8-9 months of her life knowing the baby will never know her and just bounce from one foster home to another. Why do all pro-lifers want this for children? Why do they think the government should decide for pregnant girls and women who will live and die? Why doesn't the government treat pregnant girls and women with the care, respect, and dignity they deserve during the most stressful times of their lives?
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[Let me preface my question by pointing out that I am very much pro-abortion, but that I'm also very anti-bad-argument.]

Which of the points you raised could not be made to justify killing babies after they are born, and why?
 
Tlrmln said:
[Let me preface my question by pointing out that I am very much pro-abortion, but that I'm also very anti-bad-argument.]

Which of the points you raised could not be made to justify killing babies after they are born, and why?
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No woman or girl should be forced to suffer the next 8-9 months of her life.
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After the baby is born, all of the pregnancy complications are gone.
 
Blue Donkey said:
After the baby is born, all of the pregnancy complications are gone.
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Then you should focus your argument on that point, rather than on what happens to the child after it's born.
 
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