• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Debunking the "men don't get to control my body" nonsense argument

Crusader13 said:
This was recently bought up in another thread, but I thought it deserved its own as a separate issue.

A common pro-choice argument, especially from women, is that a man's opinion doesn't count. It's along the lines of "why is someone with a penis telling me what I can and can't do with my vagina?!" or (more sensibly) - "this is a woman's health issue - men don't get a say!".

In truth, this is merely a hysteric appeal to sexism and self-victimization. For a start, the Left can't even define what a woman is (or is not). In theory, I could choose to identify as a woman until the end of this post, so that must mean my opinion is validated. Crazy.

Second, this would be no different to other groups playing the same card. Should only gun owners get a say on gun laws? Should only religious people get a say on religious discrimination laws? Should we ban women from becoming prostate or penal doctors, or contributing to medical journals about these male-exclusive conditions? Of course, this would be asinine. It is no different to say men should not get a say on abortion. It's unfounded nonsense.

Lastly, and most importantly - if we polled all of the women in the world, the overwhelming majority would be against abortion anyway. Admittedly, this is because of the huge populace in ultra-Conservative or traditional societies, such as Africa, the Middle East, Indigenous tribes etc. But even if we just stick to the U.S, there are no big differences in views on abortion between men and women. In other words, women are just as likely to oppose abortion as men are.

In fact, women are sometimes more likely to oppose abortion than men are. Sources are here, here, and here. So when men oppose abortion, they are not doing so from a position of privilege or because their penis is misinforming them about women's issues. Women often have the exact same opposition to abortion so clearly it's a valid one.
Click to expand...

I'm a dude. IMO, the more abortions the merrier. We need to normalize the procedure, make it as mundane as a tummy tuck or nose job.
 
Crusader13 said:
This was recently bought up in another thread, but I thought it deserved its own as a separate issue.

A common pro-choice argument, especially from women, is that a man's opinion doesn't count. It's along the lines of "why is someone with a penis telling me what I can and can't do with my vagina?!" or (more sensibly) - "this is a woman's health issue - men don't get a say!".

In truth, this is merely a hysteric appeal to sexism and self-victimization. For a start, the Left can't even define what a woman is (or is not). In theory, I could choose to identify as a woman until the end of this post, so that must mean my opinion is validated. Crazy.

Second, this would be no different to other groups playing the same card. Should only gun owners get a say on gun laws? Should only religious people get a say on religious discrimination laws? Should we ban women from becoming prostate or penal doctors, or contributing to medical journals about these male-exclusive conditions? Of course, this would be asinine. It is no different to say men should not get a say on abortion. It's unfounded nonsense.

Lastly, and most importantly - if we polled all of the women in the world, the overwhelming majority would be against abortion anyway. Admittedly, this is because of the huge populace in ultra-Conservative or traditional societies, such as Africa, the Middle East, Indigenous tribes etc. But even if we just stick to the U.S, there are no big differences in views on abortion between men and women. In other words, women are just as likely to oppose abortion as men are.

In fact, women are sometimes more likely to oppose abortion than men are. Sources are here, here, and here. So when men oppose abortion, they are not doing so from a position of privilege or because their penis is misinforming them about women's issues. Women often have the exact same opposition to abortion so clearly it's a valid one.
Click to expand...
Truly the stupidest thing I’ve seen all day, and that includes reading one of mashmont’s posts. :doh
 
The canard of the attack of "this is merely a hysteric appeal to sexism and self-victimization" to "my body, my choice" is nonsense.
 
weaver2 said:
What makes you think women need counseling? Women don't need male instruction about abortion. Women are fully aware that abortion ends a potential child and there are emotional pitfalls. The cc pregnancy "counseling" centers have been established by Catholics and evangelicals to put pressure on women to carry the pregnancy to term. They do not provide neutral, informative and helpful counseling.
Click to expand...

"Emotional pitfall" is very subjective. Some women can experience heartwrenching emotional pain for the rest of their lives. BTW, even though I don't think abortion is a political issue, there is nothing wrong with carrying a pregnancy to term. I'm a male, but I know how horrible I felt from holding my dog, while the vet euthanized her with an injection. I was a basket case for 2 days, and that was an animal!
 
Media_Truth said:
"Emotional pitfall" is very subjective. Some women can experience heartwrenching emotional pain for the rest of their lives. BTW, even though I don't think abortion is a political issue, there is nothing wrong with carrying a pregnancy to term. I'm a male, but I know how horrible I felt from holding my dog, while the vet euthanized her with an injection. I was a basket case for 2 days, and that was an animal!
Click to expand...

And yet you held you dog ,while the vet etthanized her an injection because you understood that was best option for you and her at the time.
 
Media_Truth said:
"Emotional pitfall" is very subjective. Some women can experience heartwrenching emotional pain for the rest of their lives. BTW, even though I don't think abortion is a political issue, there is nothing wrong with carrying a pregnancy to term. I'm a male, but I know how horrible I felt from holding my dog, while the vet euthanized her with an injection. I was a basket case for 2 days, and that was an animal!
Click to expand...

Loss generates an emotional range from coldly uncaring to a life of sorrow and mourning. And yes, there is nothing wrong with carrying a pregnancy to term. However, it would be foolish to require a woman who has said, "I cannot nurture a child at this time" into giving birth to a child for which she is incapable of providing for and loving. They have not yet bonded with a fetus as have dog owners with a lifetime of love and companionship. A more accurate comparison would be the loss of a 15 year old.
 
Crusader13 said:
A common pro-choice argument, especially from women, is that a man's opinion doesn't count. this is a woman's health issue - men don't get a say!

In truth, this is merely a hysteric appeal to sexism and self-victimization.
Click to expand...

Supporting legal abortion and privacy to make reproductive decisions is not an "hysteric appeal to sexism and self-victimization". And "men don't get a say" is not an argument for legal, private and medically safe abortion. It's only invoked when some conservative christian male goes into his patriarchal mode and starts lecturing women on the best ways to handle pregnancy, child birth, C-sections, adoptions, men's sexual pleasure and legal gibberish about the right of men to avoid child support.
 
Media_Truth said:
"Emotional pitfall" is very subjective. Some women can experience heartwrenching emotional pain for the rest of their lives. BTW, even though I don't think abortion is a political issue, there is nothing wrong with carrying a pregnancy to term. I'm a male, but I know how horrible I felt from holding my dog, while the vet euthanized her with an injection. I was a basket case for 2 days, and that was an animal!
Click to expand...

Everyone has to make some tough choices in life. Just because they are hard doesnt mean they are wrong.

Look at divorce, one of the most stressful things a person can go thru, but they do it in the belief that it is the best thing to do for themselves and their families and their futures.
 
Irredentist said:
I think you've rather missed the point of the argument. The idea isn't that only women can have a say on abortion rights. The idea is that everyone, regardless of gender, deserves bodily autonomy, and the freedom to decide what medical procedures they will choose to undergo, free from government interference.
Click to expand...

The way I see it, people who don't even know pregnant women (lawmakers and governors) have no right to make decisions for them. Her doctor can say no. Her parents can say no if she is under 18 years old. They know her mind and body.
 
Blue Donkey said:
The way I see it, people who don't even know pregnant women (lawmakers and governors) have no right to make decisions for them. Her doctor can say no. Her parents can say no if she is under 18 years old. They know her mind and body.
Click to expand...

I don't think parents should be deciding whether their children have abortions. I'm not in favor of mandatory parental notification.
 
Irredentist said:
I don't think parents should be deciding whether their children have abortions. I'm not in favor of mandatory parental notification.
Click to expand...

I was just making the point that only people in the exam room with her have a right to say no. If her gynecologist or mom says no, it must be an honest answer, not what the government requires them to say, based on medical records only they have access to and their conversations with the patient that nobody else can hear. Nobody should be allowed to base the decision for her based on religious beliefs.

Sex education needs to improve before high school girls can fully understand what abortion is and why red states oppose it. They also need to learn solutions for "what if I do get pregnant?" before making that decision. Otherwise they could regret the decision to get an abortion for the rest of their lives. Until then, nothing can stop parents and doctors from trying to talk girls out of having abortions. That is just the reality of it.
 
Blue Donkey said:
I was just making the point that only people in the exam room with her have a right to say no. If her gynecologist or mom says no, it must be an honest answer, not what the government requires them to say, based on medical records only they have access to and their conversations with the patient that nobody else can hear. Nobody should be allowed to base the decision for her based on religious beliefs.

Sex education needs to improve before high school girls can fully understand what abortion is and why red states oppose it. They also need to learn solutions for "what if I do get pregnant?" before making that decision. Otherwise they could regret the decision to get an abortion for the rest of their lives. Until then, nothing can stop parents and doctors from trying to talk girls out of having abortions. That is just the reality of it.
Click to expand...

Might some girls regret the decision to have an abortion? Quite possibly. But they can always have children later. Once the child is born, not much that can be done about it.
 
Given that my grandmother was left alone at the worst of the Great Depression to raise NINE children after her husband succumbed to Consumption (Tuberculosis) and somehow made it work means as far as I'm concerned the argument "not ready to have children" falls on deaf ears.
 
SDET said:
Given that my grandmother was left alone at the worst of the Great Depression to raise NINE children after her husband succumbed to Consumption (Tuberculosis) and somehow made it work means as far as I'm concerned the argument "not ready to have children" falls on deaf ears.
Click to expand...

Some of us hate kids. Now what?
 
SDET said:
Given that my grandmother was left alone at the worst of the Great Depression to raise NINE children after her husband succumbed to Consumption (Tuberculosis) and somehow made it work means as far as I'm concerned the argument "not ready to have children" falls on deaf ears.
Click to expand...

Good on your granny. She must have been a remarkable women of strength, courage, resource and a hard worker. I'm guessing that granny was not the norm. In the days of the Depression most women, alone, with children and no source of income ended up dying, starving, giving children away into unknown situations, in the poor house, as prostitute or what amounted to slave labor. Just because someone can do something doesn't mean it is the best choice for everyone.

It is many times more likely that an unwanted child will be abused, uneducated, poor and criminal than loved and grown up to be a stable, secure, contributing adult.

Sometimes abortion is the most humane choice.
 
SDET said:
....... as far as I'm concerned the argument "not ready to have children" falls on deaf ears.
Click to expand...

Everybody is aware that it falls on deaf ears. And here is what you deaf eared people create:

"Unintended pregnancy is also associated with an array of negative outcomes for the women and
children involved. For example, relative to women who become pregnant intentionally, women who
experience unintended pregnancies have a higher incidence of mental-health problems, have less
stable romantic relationships, experience higher rates of physical abuse, and are more likely to
have abortions or to delay the initiation of prenatal care. Children whose conception was
unintentional are also at greater risk than children who were conceived intentionally of experiencing
negative physical- and mental-health outcomes and are more likely to drop out of high school and
to engage in delinquent behavior during their teenage years.

(from: the Brookings Institute, July 2011: The High Cost of Unintended Pregnancy)


The irony is that deaf-eared people really raise a stink when they have to pay the crime, poverty, mental illness and abuse that are the result of forcing women to produce children that don't want.
 
weaver2 said:
Everybody is aware that it falls on deaf ears. And here is what you deaf eared people create:

"Unintended pregnancy is also associated with an array of negative outcomes for the women and
children involved. For example, relative to women who become pregnant intentionally, women who
experience unintended pregnancies have a higher incidence of mental-health problems, have less
stable romantic relationships, experience higher rates of physical abuse, and are more likely to
have abortions or to delay the initiation of prenatal care. Children whose conception was
unintentional are also at greater risk than children who were conceived intentionally of experiencing
negative physical- and mental-health outcomes and are more likely to drop out of high school and
to engage in delinquent behavior during their teenage years.

(from: the Brookings Institute, July 2011: The High Cost of Unintended Pregnancy)


The irony is that deaf-eared people really raise a stink when they have to pay the crime, poverty, mental illness and abuse that are the result of forcing women to produce children that don't want.
Click to expand...

Maybe those women should just toughen up and be grateful for the children they have been blessed with.
 
Crusader13 said:
This was recently bought up in another thread, but I thought it deserved its own as a separate issue.

A common pro-choice argument, especially from women, is that a man's opinion doesn't count. It's along the lines of "why is someone with a penis telling me what I can and can't do with my vagina?!" or (more sensibly) - "this is a woman's health issue - men don't get a say!".

In truth, this is merely a hysteric appeal to sexism and self-victimization. For a start, the Left can't even define what a woman is (or is not). In theory, I could choose to identify as a woman until the end of this post, so that must mean my opinion is validated. Crazy.

Second, this would be no different to other groups playing the same card. Should only gun owners get a say on gun laws? Should only religious people get a say on religious discrimination laws? Should we ban women from becoming prostate or penal doctors, or contributing to medical journals about these male-exclusive conditions? Of course, this would be asinine. It is no different to say men should not get a say on abortion. It's unfounded nonsense.

Lastly, and most importantly - if we polled all of the women in the world, the overwhelming majority would be against abortion anyway. Admittedly, this is because of the huge populace in ultra-Conservative or traditional societies, such as Africa, the Middle East, Indigenous tribes etc. But even if we just stick to the U.S, there are no big differences in views on abortion between men and women. In other words, women are just as likely to oppose abortion as men are.

In fact, women are sometimes more likely to oppose abortion than men are. Sources are here, here, and here. So when men oppose abortion, they are not doing so from a position of privilege or because their penis is misinforming them about women's issues. Women often have the exact same opposition to abortion so clearly it's a valid one.
Click to expand...

There has been in recent years a more militant strain of feminism that frankly sees men as inherently the enemy. It's particularly taken hold in the wake of the Me-Too movement that unfortunately consists of extremist rhetoric about "toxic masculinity" and all that stuff. It's also gone viral on social media, where the tendency is to shout down people, and there's a lot of yelling and taking arguments up to Def Con 5.

Where abortion is concerned, as you point out (and I think I was probably the one to discuss this in another thread), women and men support legal abortion in roughly equal numbers.
What's the explanation? Not sure, but when people are extremely frustrated, there's a tendency to want to find an easy, convenient source to blame, and where abortion is concerned, on the part of some women, that's men.

And I say this as a man who has been strongly pro-choice since the seventies, who has demonstrated in favor of legal abortion, and has been a long-time contributor to Planned Parenthood.
 
SDET said:
Maybe those women should just toughen up and be grateful for the children they have been blessed with.
Click to expand...

What a great idea!!!!! Why hasn't someone thought of it before!!!! You are in charge of toughening up all those women with more children than they can handle. This is a federal position with a GS-15 rating. It comes with a nice blue uniform, visored hat and a pad of report forms. Good luck and God speed you in your important work. American women will appreciate being toughened up.
 
weaver2 said:
What a great idea!!!!! Why hasn't someone thought of it before!!!! You are in charge of toughening up all those women with more children than they can handle. This is a federal position with a GS-15 rating. It comes with a nice blue uniform, visored hat and a pad of report forms. Good luck and God speed you in your important work. American women will appreciate being toughened up.
Click to expand...

American women will one day be toughened, when their feminism and socialism bring about another Great Depression, they will have no choice.
 
SDET said:
Maybe those women should just toughen up and be grateful for the children they have been blessed with.
Click to expand...

Maybe people should worry about their own lives and stay out of the lives of strangers.
 
SDET said:
American women will one day be toughened, when their feminism and socialism bring about another Great Depression, they will have no choice.
Click to expand...

Thank you. Finally.

It's always been obvious to me that you want women to have no choices so that they must be dependent on men and be under men's control. Basically at a man's beck and call for housework, childrearing, and sex.

So that even loser males can get a woman and not have to compete with higher quality men...in essence, long term it would weaken the gene pool, with so many loser males reproducing.

Good that you finally put it in writing.
 
SDET said:
American women will one day be toughened, when their feminism and socialism bring about another Great Depression, they will have no choice.
Click to expand...

Women need to be toughened up by a depression like the Great Depression. So during a depression the men will bug out and leave women to survive with no source of income, several kids to feed, clothe, educate, love and survive. And you think it's women that need toughening-up?
 
jamesrodom said:
There has been in recent years a more militant strain of feminism that frankly sees men as inherently the enemy. It's particularly taken hold in the wake of the Me-Too movement ............... when people are extremely frustrated, there's a tendency to want to find an easy, convenient source to blame, and where abortion is concerned, on the part of some women, that's men.
Click to expand...

There are good reasons for women to target men as blame worthy: most of the abortion movement because it isn't about abortion but power has been initiated, organized and carried out by men, conservative Christian men. The anti-abortion movement was started by the Catholic Convention of Bishops (Catholic bishops tend to be men). It got a considerable boost in numbers when Jerry Falwell and Paul Weyrich deliberately steered conservative Christians away from their anger about integration and into anger about abortion. Follows a list of some of the more outstanding organizations leading the anti-abortion movement. There are very few women even in the women's organizations.
-------------
“…….sociologist Ziad Munson studied the characteristics of both activists and non-activists who considered themselves anti-abortion. The anti-abortion activists of Munson's sample were 93% white, 57% female, 66% Catholic, and 71% had a college degree. Of non-activists who considered themselves anti-abortion, Munson found that 83% were white, 52% were female, 45% were Catholic, and 76% had a college degree. (Wikipedia)

While slightly more than half of the membership in anti-abortion organizations are female the people that founded, organized, and run the organizations are male.

The National Right to Life Committee (NRLC) is the oldest and largest national pro-life organization in the United States . It was founded in 1967 as the "Right to Life League" to coordinate its state campaigns under the auspices of the NCCB.(As far as I know Catholic bishops are still all men)
It has had 5 male and 5 female presidents since it’s founding.
It’s current Legislative Director is Doug Johnson


Operation Rescue one of the most active anti-abortion organizations: president and founder Randall Terry; past president Keith Tucci; current president Troy Newman
Spin-offs Operation Rescue West, Jeff White; Operation Rescue North, Rev. Flip Benham; Operation Rescue National, Pat McEwen
Operation Save America:president Rusty Thomas
Center for Medical Progress: David Daleiden
Focus on the Family: James Dobson
Family Research Council: Tony Perkins
Priests for Life” Archbishop John Quinn
Concerned Women For America: Timothy and Beverly LaHaye
Live Action:Lila Rose with James O’Keefe
American Coalition for Life: Activities: created wanted posters with $5000 reward for abortion providers. Crossed out names of providers when one was shot or killed: Created the Nuremburg Files, the addresses, phone numbers and photos of abortion providers and their families. Were finally taken to court by PP: Convicted: 9 men, 2 women

James O’Feefe: independent activist originator of actions against ACORN, Planned Parenthood recordings, invasion of Sen. Mary Landrieu’s office.
Pat Robertson: Christian Coalition of America became a significant anti-abortion organization.
Richard Land, president of the Southern Baptist Convention's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission, said that making abortion illegal is more important than any other issue.
Jerry Falwell and Paul Weyrich together created and developed anti-abortion position and activities for evangelicals.
Kevin Williamson: writer for The Atlantic : tweets in which he referred to abortion as "homicide" that should be treated "like any other homicide." He added that those who support capital punishment should favor the death penalty for women who get abortions.

Anti-abortion bills introduced and sponsored in Congress and state legislatures: almost 100% men

Voting for restrictive abortion laws. Almost 100% male.

Telling women how easy and simply it is to carry a pregnancy to term, give birth or get a C-section, stop lactation, give up child for adoption, regain strength and shape. 100% male.

Women are angry and frustrated with anti-abortion males because men are the ones leading the organization, activities, legislation and instruction on reproduction. The anger has almost nothing to do with being a feminist.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom