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If conservatives want to be draconian about abortion, then they should go full measure.

This "Secular" modern society bases most of its laws and moral teachings from the Bible. And you seem to be referring heavily to the Old Testament, which is merely a recount of events during ancient cultures. That doesn't constitute Christian dogma.

Our Constitution and laws are based on Greek political philosophy, Roman practical politics and Enlightenment philosophy of freedom and individualism, not the Bible's Ten Commandments. The last 7 commandments are not unique to the Old Testament. Most cultures have recognized that murder, false witness, theft are bad and honoring parents, avoiding jealousy are good. They were written in cuniform on clay tablets by Hammurabi long before Moses tried to shape up his unruly little band of former slaves by telling them their new God would 'smite' them for not acting civilized. In case you didn't know it the Ten Commandments are from the Old Testament which is not just a recounting of events. It also enumerates other laws and behaviors from which your church picks and chooses.

Maybe as soon as you stop telling me and the rest of the Christians how to live our own lives and enjoy our own religious freedoms. You seem to be more than happy to demand that we keep quiet, stop preaching out imaginary book on the streets or in schools, etc etc.

Nobody is telling you to be quiet. Your problem starts because you think religious freedom means a free ticket to discriminate against people you don't like and simultaneously have a mandate from your God to legislate your dogma into US laws and force public school students to pray your prayers. That isn't what freedom of religion means at all and naturally people are going to be hostile.
 
Lol.

Man oh man.

You sure do have it ass backwards.

Typical with a christian. You pay taxes into society. It gets spent how society wants it spent. Via voting. You dislike that, YOU leave. Maybe you can create this paleoconservative religious society somewhere else.

Actually, you're just wrong. I know you hate the fact that conservative Christians have rights, but we do; and they stretch far beyond just being able to vote. We also have freedom of assembly. Free speech. The right to protest and lobby. The exact same tactics gays used to demand laws that they wanted. We can do it too, whether you like it or not.
 
Our Constitution and laws are based on Greek political philosophy, Roman practical politics and Enlightenment philosophy of freedom and individualism, not the Bible's Ten Commandments. The last 7 commandments are not unique to the Old Testament. Most cultures have recognized that murder, false witness, theft are bad and honoring parents, avoiding jealousy are good. They were written in cuniform on clay tablets by Hammurabi long before Moses tried to shape up his unruly little band of former slaves by telling them their new God would 'smite' them for not acting civilized. In case you didn't know it the Ten Commandments are from the Old Testament which is not just a recounting of events. It also enumerates other laws and behaviors from which your church picks and chooses.

Sure, and it's probably just coincidental that our laws are heavily based around Christian values, while Christianity has also been the most prominent religion in the country throughout history. No connection there whatsoever...yeah right.

Nobody is telling you to be quiet.

Yes they are, starting with you in this very thread.

Your problem starts because you think religious freedom means a free ticket to discriminate against people you don't like

No, the Constitution and Supreme Court means we get a free ticket to discriminate against people we don't like (see: Masterpiece Cake shop case). If a Christian runs a private business, he's entitled to set limitations around who he serves. The big tech companies and their Lefty henchmen have been doing this on a massive scale for decades now with people like you mostly supporting them for it, so don't suddenly pretend you're opposed to discrimination. You love it - just as long as it hurts the people you don't like.

and simultaneously have a mandate from your God to legislate your dogma into US laws and force public school students to pray your prayers.

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What's the difference between Christians wanting to make their beliefs into laws, and gay people, Lefties, Progressives etc wanting to do the same? There is none. The whole world needs to listen to the mainstream narrative that cultural appropriation is wrong, gay people are special, men can be women, guns should be illegal, women are always victims, blah blah blah. This constant lynch-mob tactic of shouting your beliefs has also led to legislation being written in your favor. So I'm sorry - if gay people get to insert their agenda in kid's cartoons or schools, Christians have a right to do it as well. I know it it kills you inside, but if you want to strip that right away from us, you can expect plenty of resistance.
 
Actually, you're just wrong. I know you hate the fact that conservative Christians have rights, but we do; and they stretch far beyond just being able to vote. We also have freedom of assembly. Free speech. The right to protest and lobby. The exact same tactics gays used to demand laws that they wanted. We can do it too, whether you like it or not.

Sure. But you cant take rights from the gays. Our constitution trumps your bible.
 
Sure. But you cant take rights from the gays. Our constitution trumps your bible.

I wasn't aware that gay marriage appeared in the Constitution.

The Constitution is a document open to interpretation and change as time goes on. That's what Amendments are for. Just like you may lobby to change interpretation on the right to bear arms, we have every right to lobby to change our interpretation of gay marriage being recognised on the same level as as hetero marriages. Deal with it.
 
I wasn't aware that gay marriage appeared in the Constitution.

The Constitution is a document open to interpretation and change as time goes on. That's what Amendments are for. Just like you may lobby to change interpretation on the right to bear arms, we have every right to lobby to change our interpretation of gay marriage being recognised on the same level as as hetero marriages. Deal with it.

Marriage is one of the zones of privacy covered by the 14 Admendment.


From the following Live Science article:

Constitutional rights

The right to privacy often means the right to personal autonomy, or the right to choose whether or not to engage in certain acts or have certain experiences. Several amendments to the U.S. Constitution have been used in varying degrees of success in determining a right to personal autonomy:

The First Amendment protects the privacy of beliefs

The Third Amendment protects the privacy of the home against the use of it for housing soldiers
The Fourth Amendment protects privacy against unreasonable searches
The Fifth Amendment protects against self-incrimination, which in turn protects the privacy of personal information
The Ninth Amendment says that the "enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage other rights retained by the people." This has been interpreted as justification for broadly reading the Bill of Rights to protect privacy in ways not specifically provided in the first eight amendments.


The right to privacy is most often cited in the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment, which states:



No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

However, the protections have been narrowly defined and usually only pertain to family, marriage, motherhood, procreation and child rearing.


For example, the Supreme Court first recognized that the various Bill of Rights guarantees creates a "zone of privacy" in Griswold v. Connecticut, a 1965 ruling that upheld marital privacy and struck down bans on contraception.


Read more:


What happens to women who have abortions after the court ends Roe vs Wade?
 
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I wasn't aware that gay marriage appeared in the Constitution.

The Constitution is a document open to interpretation and change as time goes on. That's what Amendments are for. Just like you may lobby to change interpretation on the right to bear arms, we have every right to lobby to change our interpretation of gay marriage being recognised on the same level as as hetero marriages. Deal with it.

Sorry, dominionists have no right to force their definition of things onto people. You have your religion. Keep it to yourself and out of public schools, policies, etc.
 
Sure, and it's probably just coincidental that our laws are heavily based around Christian values, while Christianity has also been the most prominent religion in the country throughout history. No connection there whatsoever...yeah right.
Then point out the sections in the Constitution and enumerate the laws that are Christian values. You won't find any: Love your neighbor as I have loved you"; "Do unto others ...etc"; " sell all that you possess and distribute it to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." in US law or the Constitution.

"Nobody is telling you to be quiet". Yes they are, starting with you in this very thread.
Name some situations where you can't preach, teach, lecture, harangue, go door to door; who was it stopped you from any of those activities and told you to be quiet? Names and dates? You don't have any because nobody has stifled your homophobic, sexist, moralistic, hypocritical speech, posts, letters to the editor, media programs, books, pamphlets, think tanks. Even the courts have heard you cases. The only thing conservative Christians have been told is that you can't use public venues for your religious purposes.: that includes requiring city hall to post the Ten Commandments, forcing your prayers into public schools, passing laws forcing women to follow your dogma on abortion and discriminate, based on your religious beliefs, by refusing goods and services in the public market place.


.....the Constitution and Supreme Court means we get a free ticket to discriminate against people we don't like (see: Masterpiece Cake shop case). If a Christian runs a private business, he's entitled to set limitations around who he serves. The big tech companies and their Lefty henchmen have been doing this on a massive scale for decades now with people like you mostly supporting them for it, so don't suddenly pretend you're opposed to discrimination. You love it - just as long as it hurts the people you don't like.

You haven't read the Supreme Court's judgement on Masterpiece or you would know that they did not give conservative Christians the right to discriminate. They didn't even give Masterpiece the right to discriminate. Read the Court's judgement so you don't sound like an ignoramus.
And what big tech corporations discriminated "on a massive scale for decades"? And whom did they discriminate against? You can't name them or their acts of discrimination because they don't exist.



What's the difference between Christians wanting to make their beliefs into laws, and gay people, Lefties, Progressives etc wanting to do the same? There is none. The whole world needs to listen to the mainstream narrative that cultural appropriation is wrong, gay people are special, men can be women, guns should be illegal, women are always victims, blah blah blah. This constant lynch-mob tactic of shouting your beliefs has also led to legislation being written in your favor. So I'm sorry - if gay people get to insert their agenda in kid's cartoons or schools, Christians have a right to do it as well. I know it it kills you inside, but if you want to strip that right away from us, you can expect plenty of resistance.

Explain exactly what gives conservative Christians the right to make their religious beliefs into federal and state law when the Constitution clearly and explicitly says:""Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"
Gays asking for equal rights, Democrats promoting a political platform, gun owners pointing out their Constitutional right to own and bear arms, and women asking for equal pay, opportunity and benefits are not trying to install a religion. On the other hand conservative Christians are trying to get their religious beliefs honored exclusively in the law and the public arena.
 
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I wasn't aware that gay marriage appeared in the Constitution.

The Constitution is a document open to interpretation and change as time goes on. That's what Amendments are for. Just like you may lobby to change interpretation on the right to bear arms, we have every right to lobby to change our interpretation of gay marriage being recognised on the same level as as hetero marriages. Deal with it.

No you don't. That's taking rights away based on religious beliefs. That's "making a law respecting an establishment of religion" and neither you nor the courts can do that. What's it to you anyway if gays marry? It's none of your business. This isn't a Christian nation and Christians can't take away rights because some people aren't Christian enough to suit them.
 
Moving this line of discussion "the Constitution and Supreme Court means we get a free ticket to discriminate against people we don't like (see: Masterpiece Cake shop case) over to the US Constitution: Forum Church and State.
 
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Then point out the sections in the Constitution and enumerate the laws that are Christian values.

Almost every Western nation with Christian roots outlaws murder, polygamy, theft, threats of violence or intimidation, classism, withholding pay or employment etc - the Bible and early Christians were integral to carrying these morals into the modern world. Beyond the law, Christian values are ingrained into our social culture; which is why we frown upon adultery, cussing, jealousy, revenge, and so on. You may think these are "common sense" or universal values but they're not - plenty of countries around the world which have been ruled and influenced by other religions do not outlaw or stigmatize these things, which is why rape, polygamy, and even murder are common practice in these countries.

Heck, even the concept of being free from religion and not forcing people to follow your beliefs comes from the Bible. It must also be a massive coincidence that the Founding Fathers were mostly of a particular religion...

Name some situations where you can't preach, teach, lecture, harangue, go door to door;

I didn't say we're legally denied the right to voice our faith - what I'm saying is that we're told constantly by society (including you) to "keep quiet" or "stay away from our schools" or "stop Bible bashing!!", all while (ironically) being criticized for "telling people what to do". Figures.

You haven't read the Supreme Court's judgement on Masterpiece or you would know that they did not give conservative Christians the right to discriminate.

Yep - Christian baker doesn't need to engage in coerced speech by producing artwork which goes against his faith. In other words, he can refuse to design a gay wedding cake even if he proudly designs wedding cakes for straight weddings. What a beautiful victory.

Explain exactly what gives conservative Christians the right to make their religious beliefs into federal and state law when the Constitution clearly and explicitly says:""Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Already covered this; freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, right to protest, lobbying etc. Amendments to the Constitution have been made since the original document was written, based on how society perceives and defines new social norms. This can happen again. This is why Roe v Wade, the so-called "Constitutional right to abortion" is constantly under pressure of being overturned.

Also, you don't get to discount someone's beliefs just because they're religious. Your belief that gay marriage is OK is only a belief as well. Your secular beliefs are no more correct or valid than my religious ones. To that end, Christians may push against gay marriage for religious reasons, but if they can justify it with non-religious, secular, and rational arguments, they have a right to make their case. The Constitution protects you from being held at gunpoint to go to church. It doesn't protect you from Christian voters and lawmakers passing laws based on biblical morals as long as they can justify it with more than "because God said so".

Gays asking for equal rights, Democrats promoting a political platform, gun owners pointing out their Constitutional right to own and bear arms, and women asking for equal pay, opportunity and benefits are not trying to install a religion.

Gays think their relationships are equal to straight relationships - naturally and biologically speaking, this is incorrect. Straight relationships usually bear children. They contribute to society. They create life. Gays cannot do this. By almost any measure, their marriage is not equal in competency or social value. Their belief to the contrary is just that; a belief. Democrats pushing for the Constitution to be violated by placing restrictions on guns is also a belief. It's unConstitutional and usually backed by murky evidence at best. You don't get to pass this off as normal yet lament the Christians for doing the exact same thing, purely because their beliefs come from a book while yours come from the internet. Get real.
 
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No you don't. That's taking rights away based on religious beliefs. That's "making a law respecting an establishment of religion" and neither you nor the courts can do that. What's it to you anyway if gays marry? It's none of your business. This isn't a Christian nation and Christians can't take away rights because some people aren't Christian enough to suit them.

Already been through this - sorry, but me and the other Christians do get a say on marriage laws, whether you like it or not. We pay taxes which subsidize these marriages and households. It's our money and we're damn well entitled to lobby how we think it should be spent, just like you're entitled to push for how you think it should be spent - whether that's universal healthcare, Black reparations, more gun control etc etc. I don't deny your right to preach and make laws based on your personal values, shame you can't afford Christians the same luxury.
 
Already been through this - sorry, but me and the other Christians do get a say on marriage laws, whether you like it or not. We pay taxes which subsidize these marriages and households. It's our money and we're damn well entitled to lobby how we think it should be spent, just like you're entitled to push for how you think it should be spent - whether that's universal healthcare, Black reparations, more gun control etc etc. I don't deny your right to preach and make laws based on your personal values, shame you can't afford Christians the same luxury.

You subsidize gay marriages? LOL. Most gays are educated, talented and have excellent salaries. Trust me, you are not subsidizing gays in any way. And the ship has sailed on whether you get a say about gay marriages or not. Gay marriage is legal: there isn't anything more to say.

Nobody is stopping you from making a political platform and lobbying for it. Nobody is stopping you from preaching. Nobody is stopping you from lobbying for laws to enact your platform. And nobody is preventing you from celebrating Christmas. This is all just random fake accusations floating around in your brain trying to find an example so you can screech "VICTIM".

Here's what you can't do. You can't force students in public schools to say your prayers during school. You can't force any public meeting to pray your prayers. You can't force public schools to teach stupid Christian nonsense like Creationism. You can't repeal legal abortions, you can try but it won't happen. Ditto for gay marriage. You can't make city hall post your dogma and put up your Christmas decorations and religious symbols on public property. You can't ban women's contraceptives. And you can't subsidize gays because you aren't rich enough. LOL

Here's what you can do: whine a lot about being a victim, blame everyone else for your lack of social skills, act like our government is a Christian entity, publish lies about people who think you are sexist, sue the state for not putting up your Ten Commandments monument in the city hall: but you won't win and last but not least you can preach hell and damnation but you can't force people to take you seriously.
 
Almost every Western nation with Christian roots outlaws murder, polygamy, theft, threats of violence or intimidation, classism, withholding pay or employment etc - the Bible and early Christians were integral to carrying these morals into the modern world. Beyond the law, Christian values are ingrained into our social culture; which is why we frown upon adultery, cussing, jealousy, revenge, and so on. You may think these are "common sense" or universal values but they're not - plenty of countries around the world which have been ruled and influenced by other religions do not outlaw or stigmatize these things, which is why rape, polygamy, and even murder are common practice in these countries.

Heck, even the concept of being free from religion and not forcing people to follow your beliefs comes from the Bible. It must also be a massive coincidence that the Founding Fathers were mostly of a particular religion...

Oh, for heavens sake. Those are universal values and Hammurabi wrote most of them down 1000 years before Moses thought up 10 of them. Get a grip. Read about the founding fathers and their education. The alternative is posting nonsense claiming Christians invented morality.



I didn't say we're legally denied the right to voice our faith - what I'm saying is that we're told constantly by society (including you) to "keep quiet" or "stay away from our schools" or "stop Bible bashing!!", all while (ironically) being criticized for "telling people what to do". Figures.
Nobody is telling you to be quiet. You aren't listening, what they are telling you is you're just talking nonsense and what isn't nonsense is hypocritical. Maybe if you quit saying stupid stuff people wouldn't contradict you so often.

Yep - Christian baker doesn't need to engage in coerced speech by producing artwork which goes against his faith. In other words, he can refuse to design a gay wedding cake even if he proudly designs wedding cakes for straight weddings. What a beautiful victory.
Read it again. You still do haven't understood the decision.

Already covered this; freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, right to protest, lobbying etc. Amendments to the Constitution have been made since the original document was written, based on how society perceives and defines new social norms. This can happen again. This is why Roe v Wade, the so-called "Constitutional right to abortion" is constantly under pressure of being overturned.
Legal abortion is going to stay legal. Nobody has ever stopped women from getting abortions. Ever.


Also, you don't get to discount someone's beliefs just because they're religious. Your belief that gay marriage is OK is only a belief as well. Your secular beliefs are no more correct or valid than my religious ones. To that end, Christians may push against gay marriage for religious reasons, but if they can justify it with non-religious, secular, and rational arguments, they have a right to make their case. The Constitution protects you from being held at gunpoint to go to church. It doesn't protect you from Christian voters and lawmakers passing laws based on biblical morals as long as they can justify it with more than "because God said so".

God said so is your only argument and yes the Constitution protects me from getting run over by mindless dogma.

Gays think their relationships are equal to straight relationships - naturally and biologically speaking, this is incorrect. Straight relationships usually bear children. They contribute to society. They create life. Gays cannot do this. By almost any measure, their marriage is not equal in competency or social value. Their belief to the contrary is just that; a belief. Democrats pushing for the Constitution to be violated by placing restrictions on guns is also a belief. It's unConstitutional and usually backed by murky evidence at best. You don't get to pass this off as normal yet lament the Christians for doing the exact same thing, purely because their beliefs come from a book while yours come from the internet. Get real.

Gays don't contribute to society? You haven't a clue.

It is not unConstitutional to pass laws relating to ownership of fire arms. The Supreme Court decided that in Lewis vs United States. The 2nd Amendment protects ownership of firearms, but it does not prevent laws controlling ownership.
 
You subsidize gay marriages? LOL. Most gays are educated, talented and have excellent salaries. Trust me, you are not subsidizing gays in any way.

Don't think you understand how taxes work, so I'll grant you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're misinformed rather than intentionally prejudiced. In reality - trust me, the gays need Christians and their tax money. We make up the majority of the free world. Homosexuals? About 9% of the world's population.

And the ship has sailed on whether you get a say about gay marriages or not. Gay marriage is legal: there isn't anything more to say.

Again, I'm going to assume you're misinformed here rather than intentionally being deceitful or prejudiced. The truth is, laws are always changing and will continue to do so. Plenty of things were once legal which are no longer so, and vice versa. Slavery was once legal but was not immune to being abolished. Gay marriage is not immune either.

Here's what you can't do. You can't force students in public schools to say your prayers during school.

Yes we can, so long as the gays and Progressives can do the same:

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lgbt-1-e1525482253481.jpg


You can't force public schools to teach stupid Christian nonsense like Creationism.

We can try, and we damn sure have a right to, just like you and the Lefties take it upon yourselves to teach kids nonsense like gender fluidity.

You can't repeal legal abortions, you can try but it won't happen. Ditto for gay marriage.

We'll see about that.
 
Oh, for heavens sake. Those are universal values and Hammurabi wrote most of them down 1000 years before Moses thought up 10 of them.

LOL Hammurabi's code has very little in common with our legal system. I quote:

While the Code of Hammurabi was trying to achieve equality, biases still existed ... and some of the punishments and justice could be gruesome. The magnitude of criminal penalties often was based on the identity and gender of both the person committing the crime and the victim....

His code also advocated for "an eye for an eye", in other words legalized retribution. This is completely contra to Western democracy, which might explain why you see very few people, including the early Founders, preaching the word of Hammurabi. They do, meanwhile, preach the word of God.

Nonetheless, fragments of previous law codes have been found and it is unlikely that the Mosaic laws were directly inspired by the Code of Hammurabi.

Try harder.

Read about the founding fathers and their education.

Already have. Now you read about the foundation fathers and their religion. It wasn't Islam. It wasn't Judaism. It certainly wasn't Progressivism. It was Christianity <3

Legal abortion is going to stay legal. Nobody has ever stopped women from getting abortions. Ever.

What do you seek to gain by lying about this? Restrictions on abortion have been in place since at least 1900.

God said so is your only argument and yes the Constitution protects me from getting run over by mindless dogma.

Baseless accusation. Not every Christian is a fundamentalist looney who preaches the Bible. The majority of Conservatives and Republicans use Christianity to guide their moral compass and always defend their position with logical, empirical data. You'd have to be seriously delusional to think there are no justifications for Conservative positions aside from Bible-thumping.

Gays don't contribute to society? You haven't a clue.

Their marriage doesn't contribute to the original purpose of social marriage - that's to bear children and ensure the birth rate remains stable. The world relies on straight relationships. Humans would go extinct in 50-60 years without straight people having sex. Trust me - nobody will miss gays if they suddenly ceased to bond. We can live without men tickling each other's sphincters.

The 2nd Amendment protects ownership of firearms, but it does not prevent laws controlling ownership.

The Amendment protects the right to marriage, but does not prevent laws controlling marriage.
 
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