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Male Post-Conception Opt Out

Here's what Bodie is saying in the op



Opt-out in the above rational for a woman means getting an abortion. There is no way to discuss Bodie''s for equality without talking about abortions. And if you talk about abortion, accessibility, while it may be a side issue is, going to come up. If abortion is not accessible the woman can't opt-out.
The freedom to do something and the availability to do something are two separate issues. At this time we are discussing the freedom do have or not have an abortion, in relation to the OP topic. Otherwise, in order to ensure equality, we'd have to mandate abortion facilities. Or are you saying that a man's opt out ability, under the OP premises, would be limited to the availability of an abortion for the woman? Because that is the only way that availability becomes a part of this discussion.

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Oh pray tell did having a vasectomy lead you discover this cottage industry?

Don't play naive, you know this sort of thing exists. One of the women I used to work with was known for it. She had three kids, two of which didn't belong to the guy who was paying for them. She tried to come on to me for the longest time. Finally one day I relented, only to have her say "I don't want to get pregnant". When I told her she couldn't it was amazing how fast she lost interest.
 
You definitely need to find a better crowd to run with.

I did, but that's irrelevant, it's enough for you to know that the "other crowd" exists.
 
The freedom to do something and the availability to do something are two separate issues. At this time we are discussing the freedom do have or not have an abortion, in relation to the OP topic. Otherwise, in order to ensure equality, we'd have to mandate abortion facilities. Or are you saying that a man's opt out ability, under the OP premises, would be limited to the availability of an abortion for the woman? Because that is the only way that availability becomes a part of this discussion.

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Yes: If you want to go camping and a tent is essential but is not available your chances of having a camp-out are almost nil.
If you want freedom from child support and abortions are unavailable your chances of freedom from child support are zero.
Your freedom to opt-out is dependent on the availability of abortion clinics.
 
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Exactly the same thing can be said of men.

If you are worried about women getting a woman pregnant and having to support a child you should abstain. Men have a choice to say yes or no as well as a woman. If you are married and you don't want your wife to get pregnant even though you knew when you got married there was the possibility of conception choose a vasectomy. Problem solved. Don't blame the problem on your wife.
That is what men are told, but it isnt what women are told.

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That is what men are told, but it isnt what women are told.

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it's just me said that what women were told

Originally Posted by it's just me
My point stands, if you are worried about unborn children in your body you should abstain. Women have the choice to say yes or no as well as a man. If you are married and you don't want unborn children in your body, though, you know the job was dangerous when you took it. If you cant bear children for health reasons, choose sterilization. Problem solved. Don't blame it on your husband.


What do you think women are told and by whom?
 
it's just me said that what women were told




What do you think women are told and by whom?
The courts allow women to have the freedom to do whatever they choose. The same can not be said of men. The moment they ejaculate either voluntarily or against their will, they surrender their freedom to choose over to women. Some people are fine with that, i am in the group that is not.

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Yes: If you want to go camping and a tent is essential but is not available your chances of having a camp-out are almost nil.
If you want freedom from child support and abortions are unavailable your chances of freedom from child support are zero.
Your freedom to opt-out is dependent on the availability of abortion clinics.
The freedom to do something is still independent of availability of that activity or item. Are you saying that I don't have the freedom to go skiing because the nearest slopes are too far away for me to afford to go?

I also think you might be misreading my position. I am asserting that the law is already applied fairly. Just because I call out bad arguments that support my position doesn't mean I'm against the overall conclusion.

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The courts allow women to have the freedom to do whatever they choose. The same can not be said of men. The moment they ejaculate either voluntarily or against their will, they surrender their freedom to choose over to women. Some people are fine with that, i am in the group that is not.

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Women have the right to choose what happens to their own body via health care decisions. As do you.
 
Women have the right to choose what happens to their own body via health care decisions. As do you.
Women also have the choice to not be mothers if they wish. Men are not given that choice.

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Women also have the choice to not be mothers if they wish. Men are not given that choice.

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Men are free to choose not to be a mother.
 
Women also have the choice to not be mothers if they wish. Men are not given that choice.

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Men are free to choose not to be a mother.

Your unwillingness to acknowledge basic truths shows me that your not arguing from s good faith position.

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The basic truth is that men will not be mothers. Read your own words.

More importantly biological men will never be pregnant. So they do not get to make those particular health care decisions.

Best case for men who do not wish to make a woman pregnant is to do what they personally can to prevent this eventuality. Abstinence, condoms, and vasectomy are usual ways to do this.

It will never be fair.

But on the whole fair not fair thing...you will never die or become critically ill because of pregnancy. Not feeling the unfairness thing.

Both parties need to support their born children . Fair.
 
The courts allow women to have the freedom to do whatever they choose. The same can not be said of men. The moment they ejaculate either voluntarily or against their will, they surrender their freedom to choose over to women. Some people are fine with that, i am in the group that is not.

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Because men have the choice to ejaculate or not. And they know the law and consequences.

If they choose to ejaculate...why are you placing blame elsewhere? Like on women? Or the law? Men have a choice...and you keep acting like they dont, or dont have the capability to make a choice in their own best interests. You make men sound like weak victims, blaming women or the law ***for their own decision.***

Can men decide in their own best interests? Yes or no?

If yes...then why is there a need to make a law?
 
Women also have the choice to not be mothers if they wish. Men are not given that choice.

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That is false. Men can choose not to be fathers.

Because men have the choice to ejaculate or not. And they know the law and consequences.

If they choose to ejaculate...why are you placing blame elsewhere? Like on women? Or the law? Men have a choice...and you keep acting like they dont, or dont have the capability to make a choice in their own best interests. You make men sound like weak victims, blaming women or the law ***for their own decision.***

Can men decide in their own best interests? Yes or no?

If yes...then why is there a need to make a law?

Can you provide direct answers to the questions?
 
A word from Mother Nature

The courts allow women to have the freedom to do whatever they choose. The same can not be said of men. The moment they ejaculate either voluntarily or against their will, they surrender their freedom to choose over to women. Some people are fine with that, i am in the group that is not.

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Yah. There's a lot of loose talk around the issue of pregnancy. In the first place, it's not just a matter of conception - the fertilizing of the egg. There's also the question of attachment of the fertilized egg in the uterus. If that doesn't happen, the fertilized egg is swept away & lost.

So implantation (of the fertilized egg), in the correct place, is the likely bright line.
 
Re: A word from Mother Nature

This is awesome!!

1100+ Posts and we are in the same place and the OP stands

The reality some people want the laws changed to support equality based on legality and some are fine with it being factually unequal based on legality.
The people that support/ are fine with it currently being unequal have their right to feel that way.
And truth be told it isnt going to change in my lifetime or my kids lifetime. Im not even interested in changing anybody's mind to support legal equality, support what you want, But that doesnt mean honest educated objective people will not identify it for what it factually is . . unequal. The fact remains you support something unequal based on legality and parental rights. :hrug:

FACTS:
The laws are currently factually set up unequal based on legality
Biology is meaningless to the topic of equality based on legality

Does anybody have anything to change those facts yet?
 
Here's what Bodie is saying in the op



Opt-out in the above rational for a woman means getting an abortion.

Wrong. There is only an abortion if the woman wants it because she can not support the child on her own.
 
What you're saying isnt quite accurate either. A womsn csn in fact have sex, get pregnant, and never inform her partner he is going to become a father, and never have any contact with him ever agsin, under current law.

That is one of my gripes of the total lack of respect the law offers to men. It operates from this stereotype that men dont want to be fathers or have contact with their children so it sees no need to protect a mans relationship with his children.

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The shortsighted OP never acknowledges this, or what it means. It means that if the ridiculous opt-out were law...if women were as calculating and selfish as the OP and you believe...women would do exactly that...never let it be known until it was too late.

This is esp. true if she says she doesnt know who the father is and you have to wait until there is a baby to do the DNA test.

It's a ridiculous, unworkable, and unworthy proposal.

Doesnt this just basically make the opt-out useless "in practice" anyway?
 
The courts allow women to have the freedom to do whatever they choose. The same can not be said of men. The moment they ejaculate either voluntarily or against their will, they surrender their freedom to choose over to women. Some people are fine with that, i am in the group that is not.

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There seems to be a misunderstanding about women's freedom to get an abortion. The courts did not require universal availability. It left the regulation of abortion up to the states. Some states have many clinics throughout the state staffed so that abortion is available most of the week . Other states may have only one clinic that provides abortion services only once every other week.

The law has made abortion legal for all women, however it did not mandate availability. A woman in Mississippi has a legal right to get an abortion. Practically speaking, she's going to find clinics are not available and for all purposes of discussion the state has used laws to restrict her right and has forced her to bear a pregnancy that she didn't want. If a woman in NY wants an abortion she goes to the county health center or PP clinic and schedules an abortion for the next week.

It is not true that "The courts allow women to have the freedom to do whatever they choose. "

The courts in MS have made abortion almost impossible . The courts in NY have made abortion easy to obtain.

Just because it is legal doesn't mean it's available.
 
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There seems to be a misunderstanding about women's freedom to get an abortion. The courts did not require universal availability. It left the regulation of abortion up to the states. Some states have many clinics throughout the state staffed so that abortion is available most of the week . Other states may have only one clinic that provides abortion services only once every other week.

The law has made abortion legal for all women, however it did not mandate availability. A woman in Mississippi has a legal right to get an abortion. Practically speaking, she's going to find clinics are not available and for all purposes of discussion the state has used laws to restrict her right and has forced her to bear a pregnancy that she didn't want. If a woman in NY wants an abortion she goes to the county health center or PP clinic and schedules an abortion for the next week.

It is not true that "The courts allow women to have the freedom to do whatever they choose. "

The courts in MS have made abortion almost impossible . The courts in NY have made abortion easy to obtain.

Just because it is legal doesn't mean it's available.
They can't regulate universal availability. Even if they rules that states cannot prevent or restrict such facilities, the law can't compel such facilities into existence. If no one wants to open such a facility in a given area then there will be no availability.

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This is the type of tactic that makes your side appear very untrustworthy...

Did you read what I quoted? I was amusingly taking advantage of his poor wording.:lamo
 
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