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Male Post-Conception Opt Out

trouble13 said:
Fair point.
I have not argued this topic in some time i thank you bringing it up.

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You do understand that I was making a play on words... right? For humor's sake.
 
Re: & now for a word from our founders

Lord Tammerlain said:
Being suckers, no

Becoming whiney snowflakes yes
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...and you consider Trouble and me, merely talking about this issue, to be whiny snowflakes... right?
 
Bodhisattva said:
I have no idea where you are going with this... why can a man NOT end a woman's pregnancy? Is that what you are asking?
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You, or someone, asked why a man would make use of a surrogate and then want to end his responsibility. I noted that if we claim that a woman can change her mind about a wanting the child, then why can't a man?

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Re: & now for a word from our founders

Bodhisattva said:
...and you consider Trouble and me, merely talking about this issue, to be whiny snowflakes... right?
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If a person had a horrible wife (ex) who used the children to get back at her ex, no.

If a person is complaining that men have it bad in general and women are being mean to them. Causing men to "go on strike" to the point of not looking for a good job, even if not in a relationship, then yes. The second one is an example of a whiney snowflake who does not want to grow up. Who is willing to hurt themselves more than the imaginary women they think they are hurting by going on strike. I doubt any non waste of skin would want to be in a relationship with someone so petty they hurt themselves before they even have a person they are trying to get back at. I think society is better off if such men never get into a relationship at least until they mature
 
maquiscat said:
You, or someone, asked why a man would make use of a surrogate and then want to end his responsibility. I noted that if we claim that a woman can change her mind about a wanting the child, then why can't a man?

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That was not me... you started asking me about surrogates though...
 
Re: & now for a word from our founders

Lord Tammerlain said:
If a person had a horrible wife (ex) who used the children to get back at her ex, no.

If a person is complaining that men have it bad in general and women are being mean to them. Causing men to "go on strike" to the point of not looking for a good job, even if not in a relationship, then yes. The second one is an example of a whiney snowflake who does not want to grow up. Who is willing to hurt themselves more than the imaginary women they think they are hurting by going on strike. I doubt any non waste of skin would want to be in a relationship with someone so petty they hurt themselves before they even have a person they are trying to get back at. I think society is better off if such men never get into a relationship at least until they mature
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Fair enough... I am sort of the first. That said, I am arguing more to argue here than anything else.
 
Bodhisattva said:
Did he know that she had done this or did she go into the kitchen with cum on her and get the turkey baster and do it behind his back? This seems strange... I will look into it and get to the bottom of this issue.
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Yes there have been several cases like this that the courts have ruled against the fathers. They rule against men who have been raped too.
Here is an interesting article by a lawyer who talks about the courts "gift" theroy that basically says that men give women sperm as a gaift and therefor women are entitled to use it any way they like.
When Oral Sex Results in a Pregnancy Can Men Ever Escape Paternity Obligations? | FindLaw

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trouble13 said:
Im pretty sure i understood what you meant.

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I am pretty sure that you understood that I understood that...
 
Bodhisattva said:
Men to should be able to opt out of Child Support if they do not want to be a father (legally). The woman can use her legal Constitutional right to birth control if she does not want to or can not support the child on her own. (Of course there are some exceptions).

This would give men the same rights as women... having a post-conception Opt Out of being a parent and not caring for the child.

She informs him of pregnancy. He makes hos choice. She retains 100% bodily autonomy and then makes her choice to abort or not.

There will be some exceptions obviously...

This argument is about POST CONCEPTION OPTIONS.

AFTER CONCEPTION.

Please don't be one of the many that will show up and say... "golly darnit he had his choice when he came... or... he has no choice"

The woman legally has a choice post-conception.
The man legally has not choice post-conception...

THE LAW forces his monetary contribution on the man for the woman's choice. This is a legal argument, not a biological one. Laws can change.

Without the law he could just walk away. This is about Potentially Changing Child Support Laws to attain EQUAL RIGHTS.

I am pro choice. I have equal care of my kids. This is a hypothetical argument about creating fairness of post conception choices for men.

Yes. Practice safe sex and use birth control...

Thoughts?
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No, just no. This is a monstrous idea and would absolve men from any consequence from their sex acts, especially the many a-hole men who like to love them and leave them fast.

It is not fair but a totally unfair and evil thing to even contemplate. You may be pro-choice but clearly your post would damage many women because it would make men get away with responsibility and put all the responsibility on women. Not a good thing, not a logical thing and as said very damaging to women and children.
 
Peter King said:
No, just no. This is a monstrous idea and would absolve men from any consequence from their sex acts, especially the many a-hole men who like to love them and leave them fast.

It is not fair but a totally unfair and evil thing to even contemplate. You may be pro-choice but clearly your post would damage many women because it would make men get away with responsibility and put all the responsibility on women. Not a good thing, not a logical thing and as said very damaging to women and children.
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Not so much an opt-out as a cop-out!
 
Manc Skipper said:
Not so much an opt-out as a cop-out!
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Yup, this idea is totally insane. If for no other reason than it makes all women supporters of abortion. It would make women who do not believe in abortion either pay for that child alone or have it aborted against their wishes. That is very unfair to all women in the US because it would give men a way out free (cop-out) where it would force all non-abortion supporting women to pay for the child all by themselves or have an abortion they do not want to have. It is just insane to even propose such a thing as a "post conception way out for men".
 
Bodhisattva said:
The argument is that the female can opt out of parental responsibility Post-Conception but the male can not so I am stating that in order to have equality under the law, he should be able to opt out as well.
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No this means that women who support abortion can have a post-conception freedom of choice but women who do not believe in abortion get screwed twice, once by the guy who is a deadbeat and once by the law who says, good for you guy, go forth and act irresponsible to more women.
 
Re: Call the question

Bodhisattva said:
I don't think that it has... if anything, most places are about MORE control over reproductive rights... not less.
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No, if anything it means countries have intelligent laws on their books rather than stupid ones like this would be.
 
it's just me said:
His argument is that if he has no standing in whether the the child lives or dies then he should have the choice to opt out of fatherhood. It's pretty simple.
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And no country should be that stupid to allow men to get away with that.
 
trouble13 said:
I dont see the problem with it as long as the mother is given sufficent notice that she will not be recieving paternal support from her partner. Her options have not changed only the the circumstances have changed. Its not a perfect solution but its better than holding fathers hostage to womens desires.

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It is not just not a "not perfect solution" it is a way worse solution for women and children. It is a monstrous women hating idea. And if a man does not want to get held hostage by child support, well then he should not have made a child with that woman. No child, no child support demands, see how simple it is.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I have addressed that neatly though...

- The decision to give birth

Once she finds out she is pregnant she informs him. He makes his choice thus allowing her all of the power and control over her own body and choice to remain pregnant or to abort.

- Child support

She would know full well and in advance that once he opts out (if that is his choice) that she will get no support from him and that she should decide accordingly with how to proceed.
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No, you just skimmed over the notion that not every woman believes in abortion and your plan would be the government saying "well lady, abort or pay for it yourself, because we value men's right over women's rights in this here country".
 
Chomsky said:
I see the attempted point, but I still see these as two separate issues.

Maybe something needs to be worked-out to improve the father's standing in the birth decision. That might be something to work out. But I see the child-support requirement for a born child to be immutable. I can't imagine changing this last requirement, regardless of the other issues involved.
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Nope, because it would be detrimental to women's rights just all across the board. It would give men the power to prevent women from having an abortion and it would given men who do not want to have a child be able to force women to have an abortion.

Women get screwed in this way twice, again making women the plaything of men's whims, rather than the person who has the right to make her own choices.
 
Bodhisattva said:
That argument is a failed one with women who counter that a agreeing to have sex is not agreeing to having a baby. The women argue that they can and should have a legal, post-conception opt out of having a child and all responsibility that goes with that.

Men do not have that option and thus, the legal system as it is is sexist against men because it is unequal.
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No, your argument is a failed argument because it is not only unequal (as it gives men 100% of power and women not), it is also a thing that would force women to have abortions against their wishes. It is a very woman hating idea IMO.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I am arguing about those that follow the law... not criminals.



If he wants that that is fine... but my argument is about a male that does not want to have a child or custody of it.



If she can not support the child then the fairness to the child is addressed by her being responsible and aborting it. Women want and have the right to abortion... their decision should not be based on what is just best for themselves.
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You do know that what you are saying is nonsense? To claim women want the right to abortion? Hell no, that is stupid to claim that.

1. a lot of women want to there to be freedom of choice

2. saying that you are in favor of freedom of choice for women says NOTHING and I mean NOTHING WHATSOEVER over a woman's personal views on abortion.

3. and freedom of choice does actually give women the right to choose what is best for them. You know, it being THEIR bodies and THEIR lives

Your view here seems to be that women do not have the freedom to choose but that they are forced to abort even if they do not want to have an abortion because of what men want. Which makes women not have any rights except having abortions, great plan of yours :roll:
 
Bodhisattva said:
So you are saying that women having sex is not an agreement to having a baby but men having sex IS an agreement to having a baby?
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What I and others are saying that if you impregnate a woman, you run the risk of being financially responsible for it. If you are lucky the woman has an abortion and if you are not, well, too bad for the man, he should have thought about it before he made her pregnant.
 
Peter King said:
No, you just skimmed over the notion that not every woman believes in abortion and your plan would be the government saying "well lady, abort or pay for it yourself, because we value men's right over women's rights in this here country".
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It wouldn't be about valuing Men's rights over Women's rights, but of equality.

Two people decide to have consensual sex
1 person has the option to simply kill the child out of convenience
The other has no choice but live with that decision, potentially for the next 18 years.

How is that fair and why should any one person hold that much power over another?
 
Bodhisattva said:
Men to should be able to opt out of Child Support if they do not want to be a father.

This would give men the same rights as women... having a post-conception Opt Out of being a parent and not caring for the child.

Without the law he could just walk away. This is about Potentially Changing Child Support Laws to attain EQUAL RIGHTS.[/COLOR]

Thoughts?
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Thoughts:
If a man decides to opt-out of a pregnancy into the 2nd trimester women have not option but to carry the pregnancy to term have the opt out choice. That's grossly unfair. Men's opt-out option should end 4 weeks before the end of the 1st trimester so the woman, knowing that her partner will not support their child, has time to make an appointment for an abortion before she has invested physical and emotional energy in the pregnancy and before the time when no reputable doctor will perform an abortion on a healthy viable fetus. . If you are really serious about equality then both partners should be able to opt out right up to the time of birth, meaning abortions performed in the 9th month.
 
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