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Most conservative males keep reposting nonsense they know is not true about abortion.

well don't tell me that. i already know. Tell that to all the "pro-choicers" here who keep telling me I have no right to vote for my opinions...you know....as if i don't have a "choice" at the ballot box.

Who is telling you you have no right to vote according to your beliefs? Can you quote someone?

Now...some of your beliefs if made into law may be found unconstitutional. That is different.
 
Who is telling you you have no right to vote according to your beliefs? Can you quote someone?
np.

Weaver2 said:
What is not your right is to demand that the government support your religion by enacting laws forcing all people to live by your religions dogma. Neither you personally or you collectively as a religion have the right to dictate to any woman or man that they must conform to the dogma of any religion.

I have a right to make any demands I want from the government, no matter how ridiculous it may say sound or even if they are unconstitutional, because the constitution can always be amended. I have that right, as a voter.

Now...some of your beliefs if made into law may be found unconstitutional. That is different.
You are correct. There is a system of checks and balances. However, just because a court may say it's unconstitutional, doesn't mean i still can't vote on the ballot box. As long as I have a right to vote, I have right to vote for my demands, regardless of what the system would say about it in the end. To say otherwise, as weaver did, is disenfranchising to everyone, not just the religious people he complains about.
 
Why would I want to accomplish the same results while endorsing abortion for all? That kind of destroys the point. I don't care what results pro-choice countries have. You're endorsing an immoral position. I'm glad pro choicers like their laws, but if Poland can accomplish the same things(and by all stats, are much more successful, their abortion rate is far below the US average), and have similar/better results, then they are a superior position both morally and statistically.

The stats only include the abortions Polish women have in the country of Poland.

Many Polish women just Go to Germany to have their abortions.

From the following Time article:

It’s Almost Impossible To Get An Abortion In Poland. These Women Crossed The Border To Germany For Help


Polish Women Fight Back Against Restrictive Abortion Laws
 
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The stats only include the abortions Polish women have in the country of Poland.

Many Polish women just take a holiday Germany to have their abortions.


Polish Women Fight Back Against Restrictive Abortion Laws

Well, that's not poland's responsibility. That's their decision they made with their own resources. nothing Poland can do about it.

And even then, Germany's abortion rate as a whole is still lower than the US, so whatever amount of polish women that go there, it's most certainly not enough to be significant.
 
The stats only include the abortions Polish women have in the country of Poland.

Many Polish women just Go to Germany to have their abortions.

From the following Time article:

It’s Almost Impossible To Get An Abortion In Poland. These Women Crossed The Border To Germany For Help


Polish Women Fight Back Against Restrictive Abortion Laws

Abortion is illegal in germany too, they just exempt the mother from liability....probably why their abortion rate is lower, despite carrying the burden for 2 countries lol
 
Abortion is illegal in germany too, they just exempt the mother from liability....probably why their abortion rate is lower, despite carrying the burden for 2 countries lol

Not really true


Abortion in Germany*is illegal under Section 218 of the*German criminal code*but permitted under Section 218a of the*German criminal code*called*Exception to liability for abortion,[1][2]*in the first*trimester*upon condition of mandatory counseling, and is also permitted later in pregnancy in cases of medical necessity. In both cases, a waiting period of three days is required. The counseling, called*Schwangerschaftskonfliktberatung("pregnancy-conflict counseling"), must take place at a state-approved centre, which afterwards gives the applicant a*Beratungsschein*("certificate of counseling").

As of 2010, the abortion rate was 6.1 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15-44 years.[3]
 
Not really true


Abortion in Germany*is illegal under Section 218 of the*German criminal code*but permitted under Section 218a of the*German criminal code*called*Exception to liability for abortion,[1][2]*in the first*trimester*upon condition of mandatory counseling, and is also permitted later in pregnancy in cases of medical necessity. In both cases, a waiting period of three days is required. The counseling, called*Schwangerschaftskonfliktberatung("pregnancy-conflict counseling"), must take place at a state-approved centre, which afterwards gives the applicant a*Beratungsschein*("certificate of counseling").

As of 2010, the abortion rate was 6.1 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15-44 years.[3]
that's exactly what I said, you just used wikipedia lingo, while I looked up the sources myself. They illegalize in law, but they exempt the woman from liability. it's basically like decriminalization. German law is basically little different from my stance here. I do not think that the woman, at this point, should be held liable for abortion, but only that abortion should legally be condemned.
 
that's exactly what I said, you just used wikipedia lingo, while I looked up the sources myself. They illegalize in law, but they exempt the woman from liability. it's basically like decriminalization. German law is basically little different from my stance here. I do not think that the woman, at this point, should be held liable for abortion, but only that abortion should legally be condemned.

Not much of a condemnation. The doctor is not prosecuted and up to 12 weeks she can get an abortion for any reason at all. The state even pays for it if she is low income


Is that your position?
 
Not much of a condemnation. The doctor is not prosecuted and up to 12 weeks she can get an abortion for any reason at all. The state even pays for it if she is low income


Is that your position?

I've stated in this very thread, i'm not interested in punishing women or the doctors. I think there are too many numerous factors that affect the abortion rate and more research needs to be done before we start looking at punitive/corrective measures. To enact such laws now could skew any further research and, my worry, do more harm than good. For the government to say "We do not approve of this" is enough.
 
I've stated in this very thread, i'm not interested in punishing women or the doctors. I think there are too many numerous factors that affect the abortion rate and more research needs to be done before we start looking at punitive/corrective measures. To enact such laws now could skew any further research and, my worry, do more harm than good. For the government to say "We do not approve of this" is enough.

Great. Welcome to the pro choice side
 
Well, that's not poland's responsibility. That's their decision they made with their own resources. nothing Poland can do about it.

And even then, Germany's abortion rate as a whole is still lower than the US, so whatever amount of polish women that go there, it's most certainly not enough to be significant.

Actually, in countries where abortion is highly restrictive women have a higher rate of abortions than where abortion is less restrictive.

34 abortions take place for every 1,000 women in countries where it is not restricted,
and 37 per 1,000 where it is illegal.
 
Actually, in countries where abortion is highly restrictive women have a higher rate of abortions than where abortion is less restrictive.

34 abortions take place for every 1,000 women in countries where it is not restricted,
and 37 per 1,000 where it is illegal.

This isn't taking into account the various laws, stringencies, and cultures of said countries who outlaw abortion. in the countries we both looked at just now, Poland and Germany, both have a lower abortion rate than the US, and they have vastly different laws.

Which is why, as I have stated, need to do more researches on the causes and factors that go into the abortion rate. You just telling me these stats mean very little by themselves.
 
Great. Welcome to the pro choice side

Where are the pro choicers who want government to condemn abortion. I'm more familiar with that side than you know, and I do not associate with such.
 
Where are the pro choicers who want government to condemn abortion. I'm more familiar with that side than you know, and I do not associate with such.

Condem away. As long as it is legal who cares?


You support legal abortion on demand.


That is pro choice
 
Condem away. As long as it is legal who cares?


You support legal abortion on demand.


That is pro choice
consider it as you will, the minute the research is final on all the causes and factors of abortion, so legislation can be tweaked and modified, it's illegalized at that point. Your invented right to deny life to play video games, and go "ohhhh that's okay!" has absolutely no room in my opinions here. I just want research to be done and completed, and as more information comes out every year, the less i'd consider waiting.
 
consider it as you will, the minute the research is final on all the causes and factors of abortion, so legislation can be tweaked and modified, it's illegalized at that point. Your invented right to deny life to play video games, and go "ohhhh that's okay!" has absolutely no room in my opinions here. I just research to be done and completed, and as more information comes out every year, the less i'd consider waiting.

That's nice.


You support abortion on demand.


Welcome aboard
 
That's nice.


You support abortion on demand.


Welcome aboard
How do I support something I vehemently condemn? you're talking nonsense now.

Please, stop confirming for me everything I think about pro-choicers. Ignorant and lacking in nuance.
 
How do I support something I vehemently condemn? you're talking nonsense now.

Please, stop confirming for me everything I think about pro-choicers. Ignorant and lacking in nuance.

You were quite clear in your support of Germany abortion laws.


Abortion on demand is legal in the first trimester


Welcome aboard
 
This isn't taking into account the various laws, stringencies, and cultures of said countries who outlaw abortion. in the countries we both looked at just now, Poland and Germany, both have a lower abortion rate than the US, and they have vastly different laws.

Which is why, as I have stated, need to do more researches on the causes and factors that go into the abortion rate. You just telling me these stats mean very little by themselves.

A better comparison is the rate of abortions in the past compared to the rate now.

The stats of legal abortions in the United States have fallen greatly in the last 20 years.

That is what really counts.
Thanks to better comprehensive sex education and more reliable birth control the US has a lower abortion rate than Sweden , France, Denmark , Finland and the Netherlands, and the United Kingdom and Is about the same as Canada.


Abortion rates by country (list by country)
 
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You were quite clear in your support of Germany abortion laws.


Abortion on demand is legal in the first trimester


Welcome aboard
again, you ignore nuance. I am perfectly capable of realizing the good, and the bad, of all these laws, based on the information I have. I do support germany's laws? some i do. I do support all of them? no. The closest country that gets to my position, and i've told you many time now, is Poland.
 
again, you ignore nuance. I am perfectly capable of realizing the good, and the bad, of all these laws, based on the information I have. I do support germany's laws? some i do. I do support all of them? no. The closest country that gets to my position, and i've told you many time now, is Poland.

Never happen in America
 
A better comparison is the rate of abortions in the past compared to the rate now.

The stats of legal abortions in the United States have fallen greatly in the last 20 years.

That is what really counts.
Thanks to better comprehensive sex education and more reliable birth control the US has a lower abortion rate than Sweden , France, Denmark , Finland and the Netherlands, and is about the same as the United Kingdom.


Abortion rates by country (list by country)

careful there.....you're doing it again. HOW much does it count? You're looking at one statistic without taking all the factors into account. that's why i support more research into this. While the abortion rate has fallen in general, how much of that was due to safe sex being more common in liberal states, while more conservative states still practice abstinence only education?

That's why I support more research. You can't answer that. If more women use safe sex, then of course the abortion rate will decline.

And in either case, that's not what really counts. What counts is taking a moral stance. That's why we have governments. Even if it meant every single woman would decide, in protest, to have an illegal abortion, what counts is that the government has taken the position that abortion is wrong and illegal. Women getting illegal abortions on their own isn't something the government can really do anything about, so then, let it be, i say.
 
careful there.....you're doing it again. HOW much does it count? You're looking at one statistic without taking all the factors into account. that's why i support more research into this. While the abortion rate has fallen in general, how much of that was due to safe sex being more common in liberal states, while more conservative states still practice abstinence only education?

That's why I support more research. You can't answer that. If more women use safe sex, then of course the abortion rate will decline.

And in either case, that's not what really counts. What counts is taking a moral stance. That's why we have governments. Even if it meant every single woman would decide, in protest, to have an illegal abortion, what counts is that the government has taken the position that abortion is wrong and illegal. Women getting illegal abortions on their own isn't something the government can really do anything about, so then, let it be, i say.

Government reflects the will of the people. If every woman wants abortion......then the people have spoken
 
Why do conservative males, when talking about abortion, continue to post stuff that simply isn't true, quote known liars, perpetrate old wives nonsense about women and refuse to believe any of the legal, scientific facts or studies about women and abortion?

What is it about the topic of abortion to causes intelligent males to become mental and moral midgets?

Must be because they have a moral compass.
 
careful there.....you're doing it again. HOW much does it count? You're looking at one statistic without taking all the factors into account. that's why i support more research into this. While the abortion rate has fallen in general, how much of that was due to safe sex being more common in liberal states, while more conservative states still practice abstinence only education?

That's why I support more research. You can't answer that. If more women use safe sex, then of course the abortion rate will decline.

And in either case, that's not what really counts. What counts is taking a moral stance. That's why we have governments. Even if it meant every single woman would decide, in protest, to have an illegal abortion, what counts is that the government has taken the position that abortion is wrong and illegal. Women getting illegal abortions on their own isn't something the government can really do anything about, so then, let it be, i say.

I’m not comparing states. I am comparing countries.

Yes, it counts because I am comparing countries where abortions for any reason are allowed in the first trimester.

The US actually allows abortions up to viability but still has a lower rate than Sweden, France, Denmark,Finland and the Netherlands.

The link I posted only lists the number legal abortions that occur in the country listed.

It also lists the year that the data was collected.


* Notes: Data generally included in-country occurences regardless of residency of those obtaining abortions. (#) indicates values which include abortions by country residents obtained abroad.
 
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