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[W:155] Can someone support women’s rights and oppose abortion?

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Scorps2000

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I have to admit, when I first joined this forum I was totally against abortion. Now that I have had a few discussions about it, I’m not so sure. The biggest thing is that even if abortion becomes illegal it won’t stop. I still lean toward opposing abortion, because it’s been instilled in me from a young age that it’s just wrong. I do see that some woman feel the need to at least have the “right” to choose. So my question remains, “Can someone support women’s rights and oppose abortion?”
 
Scorps2000 said:
I have to admit, when I first joined this forum I was totally against abortion. Now that I have had a few discussions about it, I’m not so sure. The biggest thing is that even if abortion becomes illegal it won’t stop. I still lean toward opposing abortion, because it’s been instilled in me from a young age that it’s just wrong. I do see that some woman feel the need to at least have the “right” to choose. So my question remains, “Can someone support women’s rights and oppose abortion?”
Click to expand...

Yes, there are many women and men out there that oppose abortion (for themselves) but agree a woman has the right to choose what goes on in her own body. Not too difficult a concept there.
 
Scorps2000 said:
I have to admit, when I first joined this forum I was totally against abortion. Now that I have had a few discussions about it, I’m not so sure. The biggest thing is that even if abortion becomes illegal it won’t stop. I still lean toward opposing abortion, because it’s been instilled in me from a young age that it’s just wrong. I do see that some woman feel the need to at least have the “right” to choose. So my question remains, “Can someone support women’s rights and oppose abortion?”
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There is nothing uniquely feminine about murder so yes.
 
I don’t see why not. I support lots of different kinds of rights but that doesn’t mean I think any of them are unconditional.

I’ve also preferred talking about abortion in the context of a “pregnant person” rather than “woman”, not least because it helps argue against people who contrast the rights and responsibilities of mothers and fathers with in child support et al (it’s never actually convinced anyone as far as I’m aware but it’s still a valid argument iMO :cool: ).
 
Praxas said:
Yes, there are many women and men out there that oppose abortion (for themselves) but agree a woman has the right to choose what goes on in her own body. Not too difficult a concept there.
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I disagree, if your opinion is that abortion is murder it's very difficult. Why do so many people that feel a woman's right to choose is "not too difficult a concept"? You are actually giving a woman the right to terminate a potential child’s life.
 
Scorps2000 said:
I have to admit, when I first joined this forum I was totally against abortion. Now that I have had a few discussions about it, I’m not so sure. The biggest thing is that even if abortion becomes illegal it won’t stop. I still lean toward opposing abortion, because it’s been instilled in me from a young age that it’s just wrong. I do see that some woman feel the need to at least have the “right” to choose. So my question remains, “Can someone support women’s rights and oppose abortion?”
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Good thread. Penetrating question. Welcome to DP.

“Can someone support women’s rights and oppose abortion?”

Yes. That is precisely my position in this matter.

Every human being is a moral agent, responsible for his/her free moral choices.
A woman is a human being.
A woman is responsible for her moral choices.

Responsibility implies the right to make those choices.

Every human being has the right to choose to his/her moral acts.
Moral acts includes acts that are right and acts that are wrong.
Every human being has a right to choose to perform an immoral act.
That's what moral freedom means.

All of the above is irrespective of the law in any particular case.

Whether abortion is legal or illegal, a woman is a free moral agent with the right to choose to act morally or immorally.

Abortion, except where the life of the woman is at stake, is immoral.
Abortion is the termination of a human life and, therefore, immoral.

But the woman has a right to abort.
 
Scorps2000 said:
I have to admit, when I first joined this forum I was totally against abortion. Now that I have had a few discussions about it, I’m not so sure. The biggest thing is that even if abortion becomes illegal it won’t stop. I still lean toward opposing abortion, because it’s been instilled in me from a young age that it’s just wrong. I do see that some woman feel the need to at least have the “right” to choose. So my question remains, “Can someone support women’s rights and oppose abortion?”
Click to expand...

Women's rights is an ambiguous concept, just as is human rights. Those rights are whatever society believes them to be strongly enough to encode them into law.

So based on that, the answer seems to be both yes and no.
 
Short on time here this am, so will post this for now and check back later:

I'm pro-choice and my view is that it is about women's rights...and the effects the violations to our rights would have on women and society in general. Our rights to bodily sovereignty, self-determination, preserving our health and lives, due process, and privacy are all protected under the Constitution, yet pro-life supporters are willing to see these all violated in order to provide the same exact things to the unborn...at our expense. As if the unborn are "more deserving." They seem to value the unborn more than women who's behavior they disapprove of.

It's not possible to treat born and unborn equally under the law. (Or if it is, I'm still waiting to see that explained)​

Summary: I value the unborn but I value all born people more.

Also, people seem to forget that if elective abortion were made illegal...then the govt is obligated to track, identify, and stop women from having them...which would require force, of law and otherwise...and what that actually entails for women's lives and society.
 
Angel said:
Abortion, except where the life of the woman is at stake, is immoral.
Abortion is the termination of a human life and, therefore, immoral.

But the woman has a right to abort.
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Who says? What moral authority claims that? I'm sure some do...plenty of religions for example.

So...what authority are you basing your opinion on?


Because it leads to the conclusion that life alone...a heartbeat...is the most important thing...because your claim means that all else is secondary after breathing, basic existence.

For myself, I believe in a person's right to self-determination and the entirety of a life as it's lived...more about "who they are" than "what'. All higher animals have a heartbeat...that criteria alone does not separate us from the rest of the animal kingdom.

I guess I just believe in quality of life over quantity.
 
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Lursa said:
Short on time here this am, so will post this for now and check back later:

I'm pro-choice and my view is that it is about women's rights...and the effects the violations to our rights would have on women and society in general. Our rights to bodily sovereignty, self-determination, preserving our health and lives, due process, and privacy are all protected under the Constitution, yet pro-life supporters are willing to see these all violated in order to provide the same exact things to the unborn...at our expense. As if the unborn are "more deserving." They seem to value the unborn more than women who's behavior they disapprove of.

It's not possible to treat born and unborn equally under the law. (Or if it is, I'm still waiting to see that explained)​

Summary: I value the unborn but I value all born people more.

Also, people seem to forget that if elective abortion were made illegal...then the govt is obligated to track, identify, and stop women from having them...which would require force, of law and otherwise...and what that actually entails for women's lives and society.
Click to expand...

I agree with most of that except if abortion becomes illegal the "doctor" that provides the abortion should pay the price, not the woman.
 
HonestJoe said:
I don’t see why not. I support lots of different kinds of rights but that doesn’t mean I think any of them are unconditional.

I’ve also preferred talking about abortion in the context of a “pregnant person” rather than “woman”, not least because it helps argue against people who contrast the rights and responsibilities of mothers and fathers with in child support et al (it’s never actually convinced anyone as far as I’m aware but it’s still a valid argument iMO :cool: ).
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Totally agree and believe that will change more in the future. Pregnant/gestating men's rights would also be violated by further restrictions on elective abortion.

Wow, that's a good new talking point. Thanks! It's been nearly impossible to get people to actually seriously consider the effects on society that illegal elective abortion would create...the enormous rights violations. Sadly, perhaps it would finally get more attention if men feared they might actually be impacted by those violations as well.
 
Scorps2000 said:
I have to admit, when I first joined this forum I was totally against abortion. Now that I have had a few discussions about it, I’m not so sure. The biggest thing is that even if abortion becomes illegal it won’t stop. I still lean toward opposing abortion, because it’s been instilled in me from a young age that it’s just wrong. I do see that some woman feel the need to at least have the “right” to choose. So my question remains, “Can someone support women’s rights and oppose abortion?”
Click to expand...

No.


Can someone support civil rights and slavery?


Also no
 
Scorps2000 said:
I agree with most of that except if abortion becomes illegal the "doctor" that provides the abortion should pay the price, not the woman.
Click to expand...

WOW! I have read that before and can only ask...why in Hell isnt she responsible for her own decision?

What do you think "pro-choice" means? It means respecting women to know what is best for their lives, their futures, their responsibilities to their families and dependents, and their obligations and commitments to employer, community, society, etc.

Your view is incredibly insulting to women, IMO. Perhaps you have not thought it thru?
 
Lursa said:
WOW! I have read that before and can only ask...why in Hell isnt she responsible for her own decision?

What do you think "pro-choice" means? It means respecting women to know what is best for their lives, their futures, their responsibilities to their families and dependents, and their obligations and commitments to employer, community, society, etc.

Your view is incredibly insulting to women, IMO. Perhaps you have not thought it thru?
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These people tend to view women more as object than as people, unfortunately
 
Scorps2000 said:
because it’s been instilled in me from a young age that it’s just wrong
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Suppose it had been instilled upon you at an early age that drinking alcohol was just wrong?
Would you support making the consumption of all alcohol illegal?

What if it had been instilled upon you at an early age that having sex with anyone over the age of 8 was just fine and dandy?
Would you think having sex with a 10 year old was perfectly fine and dandy?

Do you not understand that having something instilled in you doesn't make it right?

Think about racism. That's instilled in kids isn't it?

Rather than base your ideologies on what you've been told in the past, why not base them on what you've learned and experienced right up through today?
 
We have no obligation to allow every being with the potential to become a rational human being to realize that potential, If it comes to a clash between the supposed interests of potentially rational but not yet fully conscious beings and the vital interests of actually rational women, we should give preference to the woman every time.
 
Scorps2000 said:
I have to admit, when I first joined this forum I was totally against abortion. Now that I have had a few discussions about it, I’m not so sure. The biggest thing is that even if abortion becomes illegal it won’t stop. I still lean toward opposing abortion, because it’s been instilled in me from a young age that it’s just wrong. I do see that some woman feel the need to at least have the “right” to choose. So my question remains, “Can someone support women’s rights and oppose abortion?”
Click to expand...

Yes, but only on a personal level, if you support Laws the ban abortion then now you are not supporting equal rights for women. Personally I oppose abortion in most cases, and would prefer that women chose other methods of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy, but I would never consider taking away a woman's right to make her own choice.
 
Are some of you saying that IF abortion becomes illegal and a woman gets an abortion, SHE should pay the price and not the doctor?

If something is illegal, you shouldn't do it and the doctors are the ones doing it, correct? If drinking alcohol was illegal and I drank it, I would pay the price, correct?

What am I missing?
 
I feel like the womens right to motherhood is more important than her right to be barren.

Motherhood as a "right" should be preserved and protected at all costs.
Abortion as a "right" should be severely restricted and looked down upon.

IMO
 
j brown's body said:
We have no obligation to allow every being with the potential to become a rational human being to realize that potential, If it comes to a clash between the supposed interests of potentially rational but not yet fully conscious beings and the vital interests of actually rational women, we should give preference to the woman every time.
Click to expand...

Yes, if it's a choice between the woman or the baby, but not if it's just a convenience...
 
tacomancer said:
These people tend to view women more as object than as people, unfortunately
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That may be correct sometimes, but not in my case. I have a daughter...
 
Iron_Merc said:
I feel like the womens right to motherhood is more important than her right to be barren.

Motherhood as a "right" should be preserved and protected at all costs.
Abortion as a "right" should be severely restricted and looked down upon.

IMO
Click to expand...

I let the woman decide
 
Scorps2000 said:
Are some of you saying that IF abortion becomes illegal and a woman gets an abortion, SHE should pay the price and not the doctor?

If something is illegal, you shouldn't do it and the doctors are the ones doing it, correct? If drinking alcohol was illegal and I drank it, I would pay the price, correct?

What am I missing?
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Did the doctor go to her house and force the procedure on her?

I'm not saying the Dr who performs any illegal procedure shouldnt be prosecuted...but if the patient comes to the Dr...how is the patient not accountable?

In your analogy...the woman is the "drinker" and the Dr is the bartender. She came in for a drink...he couldnt serve her if she hadnt. Both would be accountable.
 
Scorps2000 said:
Yes, if it's a choice between the woman or the baby, but not if it's just a convenience...
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Who is to be the arbiter? Politicians? Clowns like Louie Gohmert? No thanks.

It might be worth noting that abortion is higher in countries where it is illegal than where it is legal. If one really wants to stop abortions, their cause would be better served if they made comprehensive sex education available to young people and a wide variety of contraceptives available to the population in general.
 
Scorps2000 said:
I have to admit, when I first joined this forum I was totally against abortion. Now that I have had a few discussions about it, I’m not so sure. The biggest thing is that even if abortion becomes illegal it won’t stop. I still lean toward opposing abortion, because it’s been instilled in me from a young age that it’s just wrong. I do see that some woman feel the need to at least have the “right” to choose. So my question remains, “Can someone support women’s rights and oppose abortion?”
Click to expand...
Yes, and quite frankly many who are legally/politically pro choice are personally anti abortion. It can go even as far as protesting at abortion clinics and trying to get women to change their minds. As long as you are not trying to use the force of law, then you are being supportive of the woman's right to choose, even as you try to influence her to choose what you think is right.

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