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[W:155] Can someone support women’s rights and oppose abortion?

Scorps2000 said:
If the doctor or the "bartender" didn't provide the service it wouldn't happen. The woman is getting prayed on by the doctor and the "alcoholic" is getting used by the bartender.
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Ok now im starting to think you are even from this country LOL because nothign you said is true accurate or represents facts and reality. DO you know ANYTHING about this topic?
 
Scorps2000 said:
No, I don't and never will condone taking advantage of woman for monitory gain, or anything else.
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You mean like the many cases where women are forced to give birth against there will? or is that magically different? LMAO
 
AGENT J said:
Ok now im starting to think you are even from this country LOL because nothign you said is true accurate or represents facts and reality. DO you know ANYTHING about this topic?
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I'm no expert, that's for sure...
 
Scorps2000 said:
That's exactly what I'm saying, it's not a choice.
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wow

based on what facts are you saying its not choice?


i wonder where those cases come from then of men trying to deny access to abortion for women and trying to stop them??? is that a media conspiracy?

:popcorn2:
 
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Scorps2000 said:
I'm no expert, that's for sure...
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going by your posts you arent even a novice since you are making multiple statements that are factually wrong.
Feel free to ask anything though we are here to help and can provided facts and links.
 
Scorps2000 said:
I don't want to ban abortion, just call it what it is. The abortion industry is taking advantage of woman for monitory gain. The false narrative that is being portrayed is not doing any good. No one I know would “choose” abortion. There has to be a better way…
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That's nonsense. Clinics like Planned Parenthood actually help subsidize and fundraise for their patients procedures, if they don't have insurance or enough to pay out of pocket. Why would they do that if they were in it for profit.
 
Scorps2000 said:
I don't want to ban abortion, just call it what it is. The abortion industry is taking advantage of woman for monitory gain. The false narrative that is being portrayed is not doing any good. No one I know would “choose” abortion. There has to be a better way…
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Millions of women choose abortion
 
Scorps2000 said:
If the doctor or the "bartender" didn't provide the service it wouldn't happen. The woman is getting prayed on by the doctor and the "alcoholic" is getting used by the bartender.
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So women are that weak and stupid? That's very disrespectful, to believe we cannot decide what is best for us and all the other responsibilities and commitments I listed earlier. And it's 'preyed'.

If we're that stupid and irresponsible, it should be illegal for us to raise kids.

The woman in need chooses abortion and seeks out a Dr. If it was illegal, she'd find illegal access or go to another state or across the border. Women are not 'addicted' to abortion, it's a decision made based on circumstances.
 
Scorps2000 said:
I don't want to ban abortion, just call it what it is. The abortion industry is taking advantage of woman for monitory gain. The false narrative that is being portrayed is not doing any good. No one I know would “choose” abortion. There has to be a better way…
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A quarter of all American women have had an abortion, so I bet you're wrong.
 
Scorps2000 said:
I don't want to ban abortion, just call it what it is. The abortion industry is taking advantage of woman for monitory gain. The false narrative that is being portrayed is not doing any good. No one I know would “choose” abortion. There has to be a better way…
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Yes there is a better way: Truthful, intelligent and useful sex education instead of federal funding for the totally discredited abstinence only sex-ed; accessible and inexpensive contraceptives that women control; insurance that covers women's birth control as well as viagra; election of officials that respect women's decisions instead of legislators that are trying to defund PP; a change in the male attitude that they have a right to decide what women can and can't do; support for families in crisis and educational funding. That's the only way to reduce abortion: education, support and respect
 
Scorps2000 said:
I have to admit, when I first joined this forum I was totally against abortion. Now that I have had a few discussions about it, I’m not so sure. The biggest thing is that even if abortion becomes illegal it won’t stop. I still lean toward opposing abortion, because it’s been instilled in me from a young age that it’s just wrong. I do see that some woman feel the need to at least have the “right” to choose. So my question remains, “Can someone support women’s rights and oppose abortion?”
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Yes. The right to abort a fetus is not the only right women have. Just ask pro-Life women who back anti-abortion laws but strongly support other rights that empower women such as the right to vote, the right to hold public office, and the right to seek gainful employment.
 
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Felis Leo said:
Yes. The right to abort a fetus is not the only right women have. Just ask pro-Life women who back anti-abortion laws but strongly support other rights that empower women such as the right to vote, the right to hold public office, and the right to seek gainful employment.
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Thank you.
 
Felis Leo said:
Yes. The right to abort a fetus is not the only right women have. Just ask pro-Life women who back anti-abortion laws but strongly support other rights that empower women such as the right to vote, the right to hold public office, and the right to seek gainful employment.
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This was already mentioned and addressed many times in the thread (list of many rights they may or may not be supported)

yes you can support those rights but if one also wishes to violate the rights else where it makes it kind of moot and hypocritical especial when talking about such a major thing like abortion. Makes the rest ring hollow.

For example If a person supported gays right to vote, right to hold public office but didnt support right to be married or not be discriminated against then i wouldnt be calling them a gay rights supporter anytime soon and that would probably be the majority logical objective consensus no?
 
AGENT J said:
This was already mentioned and addressed many times in the thread (list of many rights they may or may not be supported)

yes you can support those rights but if one also wishes to violate the rights else where it makes it kind of moot and hypocritical especial when talking about such a major thing like abortion. Makes the rest ring hollow.

For example If a person supported gays right to vote, right to hold public office but didnt support right to be married or not be discriminated against then i wouldnt be calling them a gay rights supporter anytime soon and that would probably be the majority logical objective consensus no?
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Only if one believes that the right to kill an unborn child to terminate one's pregnancy is a right fundamental to the self-actualization of womanhood in the same way that gay marriage is fundamental to the self-actualization of gay persons, AGENT J. I do not believe a woman seeking to kill her fetus is somehow a fundamental right necessary for self-actualization. The reason I am nominally pro-choice is completely pragmatic, because of the actual and potential risks pregnancy poses to the life and health of the mother. If tomorrow medical science were to come up with some way that no pregnancy would pose a threat to a woman's life or permanent health, I would switch immediately to being adamantly pro-Life.
 
Felis Leo said:
Only if one believes that the right to kill an unborn child to terminate one's pregnancy is a right fundamental to the self-actualization of womanhood in the same way that gay marriage is fundamental to the self-actualization of gay persons, AGENT J. I do not believe a woman seeking to kill her fetus is somehow a fundamental right necessary for self-actualization. The reason I am nominally pro-choice is completely pragmatic, because of the actual and potential risks pregnancy poses to the life and health of the mother.
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What other rights have to do with citizen's 'self-actualization?' What does it have to do with abortion? OTOH, self-determination and bodily sovereignty are protected in the Constitution....so women are included in that.

And the unborn, with no recognition and no rights...are not.

Do you believe that the unborn are more entitled to self-determination and bodily sovereignty than women? Because if you protect those for one, the other's rights to the same are sacrificed.

I value the unborn but I value all born people more...so my answer to that is no.


If tomorrow medical science were to come up with some way that no pregnancy would pose a threat to a woman's life or permanent health, I would switch immediately to being adamantly pro-Life.
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Do you realize that the actualization of that would mean that the govt would use force to make women remain pregnant? The violation of most or all of our rights, up to and including a right to life. That's what it would take...investigations, tracking, restrictions on behavior, even imprisonment.

I'm sure you cant find that morally acceptable? Do you?
 
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Felis Leo said:
1.)Only if one believes that the right to kill an unborn child to terminate one's pregnancy is a right fundamental to the self-actualization of womanhood in the same way that gay marriage is fundamental to the equal rights of gay persons, AGENT J.
2.) I do not believe a woman seeking to kill her fetus is somehow a fundamental right necessary for self-actualization.
3.) The reason I am nominally pro-choice is completely pragmatic, because of the actual and potential risks pregnancy poses to the life and health of the mother.
4.) If tomorrow medical science were to come up with some way that no pregnancy would pose a threat to a woman's life or permanent health, I would switch immediately to being adamantly pro-Life.
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1.) well who doesnt believe that violating a woman's current legal rights, and right to life (if you believe in human rights) and making her a second class citizen would not be fundamental to equal rights
2.) thats not the topic or what abortion is so theres that. calling it such is liken to calling self defense seeking to kill a person. its disingenuous and illogical
3.) perfect!! then how could you call it "seeking to kill a fetus" then that makes no sense, you just contradicted yourself or maybe not yourself maybe thats bad wording you contradicted your two very different descriptions abortion rights
4.) I agree with you if it was ZERO risk or a super low risk (paid for verse other methods) and the laws were also changed some for reflection of father/mother rights adoption/keeping/giving custody to family etc

well i dont know if i would be "adamantly pro-life" i would still allow the many exceptions that exist today due to possible impact of the mother but id have to go through and examine them to see which ones would no longer apply

unfortunately though . . something like an ecto-womb and controlled medical teleportation isnt happening in our lifetime thats for certain ;) but man it would be awesome if it did!!! wow think about the ability to medically teleport a tumor out of a body also . . would be amazing!
 
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Scorps2000 said:
I have to admit, when I first joined this forum I was totally against abortion. Now that I have had a few discussions about it, I’m not so sure. The biggest thing is that even if abortion becomes illegal it won’t stop. I still lean toward opposing abortion, because it’s been instilled in me from a young age that it’s just wrong. I do see that some woman feel the need to at least have the “right” to choose. So my question remains, “Can someone support women’s rights and oppose abortion?”
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The same question can be asked about anything such as smoking and drinking. People can oppose smoking and drinking and still support their right to do such thing.
 
To answer the OP direct: It's impossible to support the notion that women have equal rights to men, and then deny them the same rights as men (physical autonomy) and reduce them to chattel of the State.

There is no religious justification for being anti-choice, and there is no small government conservative justification. Which means that conservatives really have no business in this debate from an ideological standpoint, unless they specifically seek to deny women rights.
 
Scorps2000 said:
I disagree, if your opinion is that abortion is murder it's very difficult. Why do so many people that feel a woman's right to choose is "not too difficult a concept"? You are actually giving a woman the right to terminate a potential child’s life.
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Twisting Praxas’ words to fit your view is pathetic.
 
Angel said:
Good thread. Penetrating question. Welcome to DP.

“Can someone support women’s rights and oppose abortion?”

Yes. That is precisely my position in this matter.

Every human being is a moral agent, responsible for his/her free moral choices.
A woman is a human being.
A woman is responsible for her moral choices.

Responsibility implies the right to make those choices.

Every human being has the right to choose to his/her moral acts.
Moral acts includes acts that are right and acts that are wrong.
Every human being has a right to choose to perform an immoral act.
That's what moral freedom means.

All of the above is irrespective of the law in any particular case.

Whether abortion is legal or illegal, a woman is a free moral agent with the right to choose to act morally or immorally.

Abortion, except where the life of the woman is at stake, is immoral.
Abortion is the termination of a human life and, therefore, immoral.

But the woman has a right to abort.
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Another moral lesson from Angel. :roll:
C4310ECB-D847-4E13-87DC-7402B39EEA79.jpg
 
Angel said:
Abortion, except where the life of the woman is at stake, is immoral.
Abortion is the termination of a human life and, therefore, immoral.

But the woman has a right to abort.
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Why is it immoral for a woman to abort? You state that it is immoral, but do not back it up with a justification. I assume that you are of the Judeo-Christian beliefs. Where in these beliefs do you get your moral authority on this issue? The Bible is clear that the life of an unborn is worth infinitely less than a developed human.

And where is the line drawn? If a woman gets pregnant and takes a morning-after-pill, is that taking the life a human being? Is the life of a 5-second-year-old pregnancy equal to a 40+ year old man? If its not equal, then the moral argument falls like a house of cards.
 
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Thank you all for your comments
 
Scorps2000 said:
Thank you all for your comments
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So, if you could cast the deciding vote for whether abortion is a legal and safe option for all women , or whether abortion should be 100% illegal and considered murder, which way would you cast your vote at this very moment in time?
 
Dragonfly said:
So, if you could cast the deciding vote for whether abortion is a legal and safe option for all women , or whether abortion should be 100% illegal and considered murder, which way would you cast your vote at this very moment in time?
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Legal and safe
 
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