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[W:344:1201]License to Kill

Re: License to Kill

I've already disabused you of your misunderstanding of my statement. What are you about here anyway?
The principle of morality is objective, grounded in biology.
Moral judgment is subjective.
Moral intuition is a form of moral judgment
.

"Facts not in evidence your Honor! These falsehoods have not withstood scrutiny!"

Just more:

"The moon is made of green cheese"

from the OP.

Pssssssssssssssssttt! Repeating stuff over and over Angel, doesnt make it true :roll:

Please articulate and support your "proclamations." Until you do so, they remain failed premises.
 
Re: License to Kill

Oy! Moral intuitions are a form of moral judgment, which is subjective. The principle of morality is objective, grounded in biology. Please stop repeating your canard.

Explain exactly how you van prove that morality is objective. You have not done so yet.
 
Re: License to Kill

Really? How do you know this?

The last years of his life my grandfather, in poor health and somethat doddering in his thinking lived with us. One summer day Francis Perkins, who was teaching at Cornell , attended a picnic at our house. My grandfather sitting near her said something about Social Security and being elderly. Madam Perkins stuck up a pleasant and gracious conversation with him. The memory of a brilliant accomplished woman talking, without condescension to a bumbling old man is still very fresh.
 
Re: License to Kill

Is Morality Objective

written discussion by readers of "Philosophy Now"


It is clear that morality is a feature of humanity. However, if morality were objective then every member of our species would share the same moral values. But it is patent that we do not share the same moral values. For example, there’s clearly a lack of moral consensus with respect to our views on euthanasia, abortion, or our treatment towards non-human animals.
For any given moral situation various factors exist that must be taken into account. So, before we can judge whether an act is right or wrong we need to evaluate several things: the different personalities of the people involved – their emotions, intentions, intuitions – as well as the consequences of the act. These factors can relativize the morality of an action. For example, an uptight person may expect us to always tell the truth no matter what, but in a situation where someone is extremely sensitive it might be justified to tell a lie to spare their feelings.
Even great moral philosophers disagree about the nature of morality. Immanuel Kant’s influential duty-based theory of ethics maintains that truth-telling is universally binding on all rational beings. Thus, if a serial killer demands to know where you’re hiding your sibling, Kant’s absolute system would aver that you tell the truth because it is not possible to consistently universalize the act of telling any kind of lie. On the other hand, John Stuart Mill’s utilitarianism would insist that you lie to the serial killer because this would most likely maximize the greatest amount of happiness or pleasure by minimizing the unhappiness or pain for you and your sibling.
In a pristine world of crystallized moral ideals, perhaps morality could be objective and universally binding on all people. However, we live in a world of moral flux, impermanence, and flexibility. And it is because of this that morality is not nor could ever be objective.
Albert Filice, Scottsdale, AZ
 
Re: [W:344]License to Kill

Yes, morality is objective. (By ‘morality’ I mean that which we all recognise as right behaviour – that which we call ‘good’). Have you ever tried making up your own morality and applying it to your family and friends? If you have, you could well be reading this magazine whilst sitting in a prison cell or an asylum.
Certainly many people have attempted to invent their own morality and then impose it on others, for instance, Stalin, Hitler, Mao Zedong, and Pol Pot. And look what they created – a new Humanity, a new Society! Does anyone fancy living in their morally subjective worlds? Each led to inhumanity and madness. It is also a fact that none of the great moral teachers of our world ever invented a morality of their own. For example, Jesus didn’t teach new morality, but rather he elaborated on what already existed. ‘Love thy neighbour as thyself’ already was, and is, a universal and eternal principle.
It is of course the case that moral codes, although objective, are tailored to, or tailored by, the particular culture and age into which they are incarnated. For instance, it has never been the case (as far as we know) in any culture, at any time, that a man (even the chief) can take whichever woman he wants to be his wife. In Britain today she has to be over sixteen, and in other countries her age may be higher or lower. Also, someone has to give consent to the marriage; either the woman herself, or her family, or the elders of the tribe, or the chief’s other wives! Whatever the ‘subjective’ cultural differences, the same objective moral principle applies.
We can no more invent a subjective morality than we can invent a new primary colour. We can no more come up with a novel morality which is in no way connected to an objective morality than we can come up with a new way of breathing.
Karl Wray, Carlisle, Cumbria
 
Re: [W:344]License to Kill

Here I will treat ‘objectivity’ as the property of an idea or object that let’s it be evaluated in the same way independently of who the evaluator is. Evaluating morality in light of this, we face two components that pose a potential threat to moral objectivity: space and time. For instance, when the Conquistadors arrived in South America at the beginning of the Sixteenth Century, they were shocked at various rituals of human sacrifice practiced by the Incas. Those rituals were morally wrong to the Spanish, who had been brought up with the morals of another culture on a different continent. The vast majority of people in South America today will likely agree that human sacrifice is wrong, so we can see that accepted morality has strongly depended on time and place.
However, with the increasing interconnectedness among mankind through the internet and especially social media, I suppose that the spatial component will get lost some day. We may see this in vegetarianism and veganism. Although both diets existed in ancient times, there had never been a spread of those ideas as remarkable as in these times of hashtags, blogs and the international exchange of bits within milliseconds. Furthermore, although a high number of people are still being treated unethically, we also must acknowledge that we have come to a more or less internationally congruent understanding of a morally correct treatment of people.
How objective should we rate this development? On the one hand, we have never been closer to an objective (in terms of a universally acceptable) morality. On the other hand, we need to ask ourselves whether the temporal component may still pose a threat. If you asked Plato whether 2 plus 2 equals 4, you would certainly have received the same answer as you’ll receive today, whereas answers to questions of morality are highly dependant on the time in which they’re asked. Therefore, morality cannot be seen as objective, but perhaps rather as developing towards a set of globally shared morals.
Jeanette Lang, Heusweiler, Saarland, Germany
 
Re: [W:344]License to Kill

Morality is objective. That is, moral claims are true or false about aspects of human interaction that involve the ideas of rights and obligations. Further, the fundamental moral maxims apply universally, and reasonable people can agree on their truth.
There are really just two alternatives to moral objectivism: moral relativism, and all the rest. But all the rest lead to absurdity: if I truly believe that I cannot know right from wrong (moral skepticism), or that all moral claims are false (moral error theory), or that there is no right or wrong (moral nihilism and non-cognitivism), then I must conclude I don’t know what I should do. However, as a social animal I must interact with others. Thus, I find myself in the dilemma of having to act but not knowing how to act. Any theory that leads to this absurd state of mind must be rejected.
Moral relativism then is the only credible challenge to moral objectivism. The case for moral relativism is that different societies have different moral judgments. However, most more complex moral judgments are derived from a few basic ones, with components that vary with the material conditions of different societies. But the fact that different societies make different moral judgments does not prove relativism. To prove their position, relativists must dig down to the fundamental moral judgments in every society, and then show that these judgments are not shared by societies. This they have not done.
This is the indirect case for moral objectivism. The direct case includes the following ideas: (1) All societies share certain values necessary for any society to function (for example, no lying, promise-keeping, nurturing children) (2) Objectivism appeals to reason over feeling and offers a better chance for humanity to solve its many problems; (3) The purpose of ethics is to provide guidance, and humanity needs guidance for world affairs and not just within any particular society, and (4) Nations and societies must cooperate, and this requires agreement on core values.
Ethics first; meta-ethics [that is, thinking about the foundations of ethics] second. Meta-ethics should not be an obstacle to the pragmatic project of seeking guidance for human social interaction grounded on something we can all agree on, which I believe is a common human nature.
John Talley, Rutherfordton, NC
 
Re: [W:344]License to Kill

Morality has both subjective and objective components. The objective component is provided by the laws of Game Theory. The subjective element is the strategy selected by a player attempting to maximise their personal reward.
Game theory describes the competitive or collaborative strategies that a rational agent can use to maximise their benefit in any situation. (In this context, a rational agent is someone capable of thinking about then acting in their own best interest.) Often, cooperation provides the optimum outcome for all interacting parties, but at any time an agent might break the contract in an attempt to increase their own rewards. Such an action might have short term benefits, but it has been shown that in a series of interaction games, such a cheat will lose out because the others will soon refuse further cooperation. There are, therefore, substantial individual and group advantages to keeping such a contract. This ‘reciprocal altruism’, where the group rewards collaboration and punishes the cheat, is modelled by the ‘tit-for-tat’ strategy in Game Theory.
I would argue with the Mathematical Platonists that abstract mathematical ideas are mind-independent entities. Like any other object, they can be discovered and verified by anyone with the right equipment – in this case a skill in mathematics. Therefore, the outcome of our moral behaviour, subject to the laws of relationships determined by the mathematical objects of Game Theory, in this sense are objective. However, the strategies are subjectively chosen by agents acting in what they perceive to be their own best interest. Their choices may or may not coincide with supporting the social order.
Human civilization is highly dependent on the operation of Game Theory’s reciprocal altruism. A society’s moral codes are attempts to ensure that individuals choose the collaborative strategy over many ‘plays’, that is, social interactions. Although the moral rules encapsulated by the Golden Rule (‘Do unto others…’) and Law of Retaliation (‘an eye for an eye’) are simple, in practice they can become very complex. Human agents are playing many parallel games in an ever-changing social and physical environment, with no guarantee of group success. To retain social cohesion, the moral code may incorporate many complex taboos or ritualistic actions, lack of compliance with which can be used as an explanation of the group’s failures. An agent, however, is always free to challenge the code by choosing the antisocial strategy. In such cases the agent will find themselves in peril of retribution in the form of tribal or civil law.
Dr Steve Brewer, Carbis Bay, St Ives
 
Re: [W:344]License to Kill

The common belief is that there are two kinds of knowledge: subjective and objective. The latter is held to be more certain than the former, and is usually contrasted with it. However, the distinction is ultimately untenable. Objective knowledge is actually derived from subjective knowledge. This is because of the absolute privacy of conscious experience, which ensures that there can be no composite or collective view of reality. So every so-called ‘objective fact’ is derivative – that is, it is derived from the private observations of individuals insofar as they seem to agree with each other.
The process of arriving at a moral truth is in principle exactly the same as that: by inquiry and agreement among autonomous individuals. The status of a value would thus be no less (and no more) ‘objective’ than that of a ‘fact’. (Unfortunately, in traditional societies, it is the authority of the past which is usually deferred to.)
Moreover, no ‘objective facts’ can be arrived at unless certain values are observed. These values are arrived at in the same way as we arrive at facts: namely by mutual agreement. They include (1) Respect for reason and truth, (2) Recognition of knowledge, (3) Respect for each other’s freedom and autonomy, (4) Respect for each other’s conscious experience, and (5) Frankness, even where this involves admitting one’s own mistakes. It will be seen that the Golden Rule is implicit here. We require therefore moral values when seeking out facts – values are at the root of so-called ‘facts’. And we may assert that both facts and values are derived from individual human experience, and so are as ‘objective’, or not, as each other.
Graham Dunstan Martin, Edinburgh
 
Re: [W:344]License to Kill

This question initially seems simple, as there appear to be many things that most people would automatically believe to be intrinsically morally wrong, in all times and place, such as murder, lying, and theft. But after reflection, many would agree there are also cases where these things may be acceptable. For example, stealing medicine to save the life of a critically ill child, or lying to someone over the whereabouts of your friend whom they express an intention to kill. However, people would not necessarily give the same reasons why these are exceptions to the rule. Some may argue there is greater moral responsibility to a friend than to a stranger, so, in this circumstance, lying in their defence is acceptable; but others may argue a hierarchy of moral actions: so although lying, or stealing, is ethically wrong, not acting to prevent a murder, or to save the life of a child, is a far greater wrong. Others still may stress the importance of social mores in ethical situations.
In conclusion, despite a widespread belief there are things that are inherently morally correct apart from in exceptional circumstances, there is lack of consensus on what these exemptions are, or when and why they are acceptable. This is what makes debate over whether there is truly an objective morality uncertain, and makes moral philosophy the challenging preoccupation it is.
Jonathan Tipton, Preston, Lancashire





There should be enough choices here to satisfy everybody. If someone wants more they can be supplied.
 
Re: [W:344]License to Kill

The idea posted in this thread that morality is objective and that apparently can't be explained probably came from reading this article written by Eric Dietrich in the December, 2017 issue of Psychology


The world is increasingly embracing diversity — religious, cultural, and political diversity, for example.* Embracing diversity means being more tolerant to differences between individuals and groups, both large and small.* This surge of tolerance is accompanied by an increasing moral relativism, especially among young people.* Moral relativism is thought to naturally accompany tolerance.
Consider the burka, an enveloping outer garment some Muslim traditions require their women to wear. **Burqas cover the woman’s body and often, her face.* Many thoughtful non-Muslim people, especially in the west, while rejecting, or not accepting, burqas for women in general because, e.g., they seem sexist, do accept, or do not object to, the practice of wearing burqas where it is practiced.* This is because wearing burqas is an integral part of an ongoing, robust culture.* A westerner might say: “I reject burqas as sexist, but this is just my personal view; others have different views, and theirs are just as legitimate as mine.”* This is relativism: the view that different moral norms are equally moral and are therefore to be tolerated.
Relativism, even if part of the story of human morality, cannot be the whole story.* There is a need, at least a felt need, for clear, definite moral lines that cannot be crossed without (near) universal, robust condemnation: racial and gender discrimination, sexual harassment, terrorism, and ignoring global warming are often thought of as objectively morally wrong.* But this moral objectivity seems to be accepted (to the extent that it is) only for such big issues as those just listed.* Relativism appears to hold sway over much of our daily conversations and judgments.
There is however, a clear path to a universal and powerful moral objectivity, the view that morality (or most of it, anyway) is just as objectively true as science and mathematics. The key ingredient is the notion of harm.*
Every living animal with a nervous system can and does experience harm (it may be that every living thing experiences harm, but that is an issue for another time).* Harm is marked by pain, fear, hunger, thirst, sadness, frustration, . . . any negative emotion or feeling.* We live in a universe that randomly dishes out harm — consider the extinction of the non-avian dinosaurs, as just one example.* But we humans can check both human-initiated intentional harm, which is under our control, and other types of unintentional harm, e.g., environment damage caused by human industrial development.
The question now is “Why ought we to check (or mitigate) such harm.”* The answer is because it is harm!* Harm is bad by definition. *Morality requires us to avoid doing bad things, again, by definition.* Hence we all have a moral duty not to harm other living things.* This moral duty exists objectively because harm exists objectively. Just as 1 + 1 = 2 is objectively true, so “we should not harm other living things” is objectively true.* This truth is based simply on the fact that harming exists and should be checked.
Of course implementing this moral truth is quite complex and difficult.* A central implementation problem is that there is no clear definition of harm.* Is taking your child to the dentist harm? **Your child likely thinks so.* Is getting your child the required vaccinations in the form of shots harm?* Many children think so.* Is trimming your dog’s toenails harm.* Many dogs think so.* So what is harm?* If I have to tell you a very unhappy truth, am I harming you if I don’t tell you or if I do, or are you harmed either way?* If I lie to you to in order to improve your life, is that harm?*
We know harm exists, we just don’t know its boundaries.* But given what we do know, it is objectively clear that where there is intentional harm, there is immorality.
 
Re: License to Kill

Oy! Moral intuitions are a form of moral judgment, which is subjective. The principle of morality is objective, grounded in biology. Please stop repeating your canard.

Oy your claim that
And kill women have!
To the tune of 50 million and still counting....
A moral catastrophe of the first order.
Is a "moral judgment" and it is based on your moral intuition
Again you torpedoed your own OP
 
Re: License to Kill

Explain exactly how you van prove that morality is objective. You have not done so yet.

And irrelevant because his OP is based on a "moral judgement" which he admits is subjective
 
Re: License to Kill

Morality and Moral Judgmentt

Morality is Objective
Moral Judgment is Subjective

Morality is biologically grounded in the survival instinct
Life is the fundamental value of morality

The value of Life informs the emotions of Fear and Disgust, Sympathy and Empathy
Emotions are objective measurable states of being

Feeling is the consciousness of emotion
With feeling subjectivity enters moral dynamics

Moral judgment (subjective) derives from Feeling (subjective),

Feeling from Emotion (objective),

Emotion from the Survival Instinct (objective)

The Survival Instinct from the Value of Life (hardwired)


PostScript
Moral Intuition is a form of Moral Judgment
 
Re: License to Kill

Morality and Moral Judgmentt

Morality is Objective
Moral Judgment is Subjective

Morality is biologically grounded in the survival instinct
Life is the fundamental value of morality

The value of Life informs the emotions of Fear and Disgust, Sympathy and Empathy
Emotions are objective measurable states of being

Feeling is the consciousness of emotion
With feeling subjectivity enters moral dynamics

Moral judgment (subjective) derives from Feeling (subjective),

Feeling from Emotion (objective),

Emotion from the Survival Instinct (objective)

The Survival Instinct from the Value of Life (hardwired)


PostScript
Moral Intuition is a form of Moral Judgment

If morality is grounded in the survival instinct, then it is moral for me to kill if I perceive that he or she threatens my life.

The perception of my life being threatened is subjective.
 
Re: License to Kill

If morality is grounded in the survival instinct, then it is moral for me to kill if I perceive that he or she threatens my life.

The perception of my life being threatened is subjective.

All the claim of objectivity in his word salad are false
 
Re: License to Kill

If morality is grounded in the survival instinct, then it is moral for me to kill if I perceive that he or she threatens my life.

The perception of my life being threatened is subjective.
Morality is grounded in the survival instinct, yes. Perceptions are both subjective and objective; absent an object, perceptions are imaginary or hallucinatory. A threat to life is in the first instance a physical reaction of fear to a perceived threatening object -- this is the objective principle of morality at work. In the second instance, when fear becomes a self-conscious feeling, the threat to life calls for a moral judgment. The principle of morality calls for reaction; moral judgment calls for a reflective valuation of that action.

But if all you mean is that it's your moral call, you're right. Every human being is a free moral agent.
 
Re: License to Kill

Morality is grounded in the survival instinct, yes. Perceptions are both subjective and objective; absent an object, perceptions are imaginary or hallucinatory. A threat to life is in the first instance a physical reaction of fear to a perceived threatening object -- this is the objective principle of morality at work. In the second instance, when fear becomes a self-conscious feeling, the threat to life calls for a moral judgment. The principle of morality calls for reaction; moral judgment calls for a reflective valuation of that action.

But if all you mean is that it's your moral call, you're right. Every human being is a free moral agent.

What one person calls a threat to life may not be perceived as such by another. Very subjective.
 
Re: License to Kill

What one person calls a threat to life may not be perceived as such by another. Very subjective.
I don't know what work your "very" is supposed to do, but if one person observes a bear lumbering toward her yard and perceives in its approach a cause for alarm and a possible threat to her life, and another person observes a bear lumbering toward his yard but does not perceive in its approach a cause for alarm and a possible threat to his life, then, since they are observing the same objective set of circumstances, their different perceptions must have an explanation. Maybe the man is an animal trainer and the approaching bear belongs to him. Maybe the man is a fool and hasn't sense enough to recognize a dangerous situation. Maybe the man is an animal rights activist and truly believes that wild animals do not pose a threat unless provoked. Maybe the man is a fur trapper and is luring the bear toward a trap. If we all agree that the approach of a bear is cause for alarm and a possible threat to life, then the differing perceptions in our hypothetical must have an explanation.

That explanation, whatever it is, accounts for their different perceptions.

To bring this hypothetical back to our topic: if two people observe the taking of a human life, and one perceives it as immoral while the other does not perceive it as immoral, or perceives it as moral or a-moral, then, since they both observe the same act, there must be an explanation for their different moral perceptions.
 
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Re: License to Kill

I don't know what work your "very" is supposed to do, but if one person observes a bear lumbering toward her yard and perceives in its approach a cause for alarm and a possible threat to her life, and another person observes a bear lumbering toward his yard but does not perceive in its approach a cause for alarm and a possible threat to his life, then, since they are observing the same objective set of circumstances, their different perceptions must have an explanation. Maybe the man is an animal trainer and the approaching bear belongs to him. Maybe the man is a fool and hasn't sense enough to recognize a dangerous situation. Maybe the man is an animal rights activist and truly believes that wild animals do not pose a threat unless provoked. Maybe the man is a fur trapper and is luring the bear toward a trap. If we all agree that the approach of a bear is cause for alarm and a possible threat to life, then the differing perceptions in our hypothetical must have an explanation.

That explanation, whatever it is, accounts for their different perceptions.

To bring this hypothetical back to our topic: if two people observe the taking of a human life, and one perceives it as immoral while the other does not perceive it as immoral, or perceives it as moral or a-moral, then, since they both observe the same act, there must be an explanation for their different moral perceptions.

AWESOME!!!! all more proof that morals are subjective. VERY GOOD!!!
 
Re: License to Kill

Morality and Moral Judgmentt

Morality is Objective
Moral Judgment is Subjective

Morality is biologically grounded in the survival instinct
Life is the fundamental value of morality

The value of Life informs the emotions of Fear and Disgust, Sympathy and Empathy
Emotions are objective measurable states of being

Feeling is the consciousness of emotion
With feeling subjectivity enters moral dynamics

Moral judgment (subjective) derives from Feeling (subjective),

Feeling from Emotion (objective),

Emotion from the Survival Instinct (objective)

The Survival Instinct from the Value of Life (hardwired)


This is is not an argument against abortion or against the women who choose abortion. It is not an argument for or against the morality of abortion.
 
Re: License to Kill

This is is not an argument against abortion or against the women who choose abortion. It is not an argument for or against the morality of abortion.
What it was, sir, was an attempt to clarify terms and conditions for those who have shown in their posts a persistent misunderstanding of the argument.
 
Re: License to Kill

This is is not an argument against abortion or against the women who choose abortion...

The OP Argument

1. Abortion law since 1973 has allowed for the killing, with impunity, of 50 million human beings.
2. Killing 50 million human beings with impunity constitutes a license to kill.
3. Therefore, abortion law constitutes a license to kill.

"This is is not an argument against abortion or against the women who choose abortion." Correct. But it is the argument of this thread.

It is not an argument for or against the morality of abortion.
Correct. The argument from morality is a separate argument, also posted. Perhaps I'll find it for you if you need it.
 
Re: License to Kill

The OP Argument

2. Killing 50 million human beings with impunity constitutes a license to kill.
3. Therefore, abortion law constitutes a license to kill.

"This is is not an argument against abortion or against the women who choose abortion." Correct. But it is the argument of this thread.


Correct. The argument from morality is a separate argument, also posted. Perhaps I'll find it for you if you need it.

glad you posted those failed claims.
so far 600+ posts theres no factual support that abortion = licenses to kill, or that its a moral catastrophe. . not one fact has been posted that makes either true.

If you or anybody can do so please do so now, thanks!
 
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