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Are abortionists now killing babies after birth? infanticide okay?

Re: There's a cure

Iron_Merc said:
The police are sold out my friend. As is the media. Everyone is protected and nobody talks - from the law enforcement level all the way to the health care "professionals" at the actual abortion clinic to the (patient\mother\victim\murderer). Nobody is talking and nobody is looking into it, you know what I mean? This happens when nobody attaches a moral consequence to an action. And if nobody is attaching a moral consequence to murder, well we are all in critical condition. And we have the democrats to thank for that. The culture war is real.

Ever heard of an abortion survivor? Ever feature one of those stories on the nightly news? Probably not...
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So there is a massive conspiracy.

Different forum.
 
minnie616 said:
What do Jewish + Christian pro choice religions ask?

We ask for religious Tolerance and religious liberty to follow our conscience regarding Reproductive Choice.

We don’t interfere or try to inpose our belief on others.
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**We cannot classify reproductive choice under religious tolerance or religious liberty**
**Reproductive choice must stand alone and be evaluated based on protocol or ethos**
**We do not sacrifice unborn/half-born/new-born children to the forces of darkness**

This is because our founding document guarantees a birthright and DEMANDS a future for every single child
In reading, LIFE LIBERTY AND PERSUIT OF HAPPYNESS. We take that literally.

1) Are you saying planned parenthood doesn't target certain demographics? Or set up shop strategically in heavily populated areas?
2) The current impeachment attempt against Trump isn't a Hail Mary pass by the Democratic Party in an attempt to salvage chances for 2020? This could potentially be considered interference.

*a working conscience will render abortion impossible and unthinkable
 
Iron_Merc said:
**We cannot classify reproductive choice under religious tolerance or religious liberty**
...
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I disagree.

Roe was based on a right to privacy, bodily autonomy, and religious liberty.

The Hobby Lobby decision set a new precedent regarding sincerely held beliefs and religious liberty.

Even during the Casey v Planned Parenthood decision , when many thought Roe would be overturned because the US had a very conservative Supreme Court the best they could give their base was the made up undue burden cause and that came back to bite conservatives a few years ago when Roe was again confirmed in 2016.

Whole Woman's Health v. Hellerstedt, (2016), was a landmark United States Supreme Court case . The Court ruled 5–3 that Texas cannot place restrictions on the delivery of abortion services that create an undue burden for women seeking an abortion.
 
Iron_Merc said:
**We cannot classify reproductive choice under religious tolerance or religious liberty**
**Reproductive choice must stand alone and be evaluated based on protocol or ethos**....
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And the We. is ...let me guess ...the religious right ?

I guess you represent the religious right and you are trying to force the religious rights view of abortion on all.

You try to ignore the fact this country is comprised of many religions and comprised of secular persons. One religion’s dogma should not interfere with another well established and regonized religion.

The belief of the religions right is not the belief of the vast majority of the Jewish faith and not those of a large segment of Protestants including my pro choice Protestant Church’s.

In fact the Justices took our beliefs into consideration when deciding Roe.

From Part IX of Roe:


There has always been strong support for the view that life does not begin until live' birth. This was the belief of the Stoics. [Footnote B][56] It appears to be the predominant, though not the unanimous, attitude of the Jewish faith. [Footnote 57]
It may be taken to represent also the position of a large segment of the Protestant community, insofar as that can be ascertained; organized groups that have taken a formal position on the abortion issue have generally regarded abortion as a matter for the conscience of the individual and her family. [Footnote 58]
 
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Re: There's a cure

minnie616 said:
I said in the last 20 years there have no abortion survivors.

Today Melissa is over 40 years old.

Over 40 years ago some abortion doctors used a Saline solutions in abortions.

She survived. The United States no longer uses saline solutions.

In 2008 Kansas was one the few clinics where abortions past 22 weeks occurred.

In 2008 Kansas kept abortion numbers and reasons of abortions performed at 22 weeks or later.

There were 323 abortions at or past 22 weeks that year.

131 were because the fetus was non viable.
192 were because irreparable damage to one of the woman’s major bodily functions would occur if the pregnancy continued.

See the stats on pages 8 and 9


http://www.kdheks.gov/phi/abortion_sum/2008itopcmbnd.pdf
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-Yes, I was agreeing with you for the most part (shes over 40). I mostly believe your #s to be accurate, but more on that later
-According to Wikipedia saline solutions are not outlawed and in fact are still used in late term abortions - we just do not have usage statistics from 20008 - present. Unless you can confirm a ban?
-So we don't have abortion stats for Kansas from 22 weeks and later: Question, is this common? It seems states are not required to keep any details whatsoever on abortions performed and reasons why? Or even names? Isn't this setting a dangerous precedent? Doesn't this give Planned Parenthood free reign to perform as many abortions as it likes, at any time in the pregnancy, for any reason? So you can confirm this, but what I'm seeing is absolutely no accounting whatsoever? Isn't this like a blank check to Planned Parenthood? I mean, nobody would blame them for making money, but this just sounds foolish. What other healthcare organization gets to cook the books like this? Could there in fact be much higher numbers of abortion going on in the United States than what is publicly available?
 
Iron_Merc said:
***We cannot classify reproductive choice under religious tolerance or religious liberty
***Reproductive choice must stand alone and be evaluated based on protocol or ethos**
**We do not sacrifice unborn/half-born/new-born children to the forces of darkness**

*a working conscience will render abortion impossible and unthinkable
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***We cannot classify reproductive choice under religious tolerance or religious liberty
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Classify? Everybody is free to classify.

***Reproductive choice must stand alone and be evaluated based on protocol or ethos**
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Must? There is no "must" . Everybody is free to evaluate.

**We do not sacrifice unborn/half-born/new-born children to the forces of darkness**
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Sacrifice? Of course we do. We start wars. We kill people. We tear countries apart. We create refugees and chaos. We refuse them asylum. We jail them. "We" elect Trump. And "Christian" call it "a working conscience"
 
Iron_Merc said:
You know, I've only been here for two weeks or so. And I've seen you around quite a bit. But your not really bringing anything to the table, are you?
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And we have known you for two weeks. Other than the astounding factoid that they spoke Latin in the Holy Roman Empire, what have you offered other than personal feelings?
 
Re: There's a cure

Iron_Merc said:
-Yes, I was agreeing with you for the most part (shes over 40). I mostly believe your #s to be accurate, but more on that later
-According to Wikipedia saline solutions are not outlawed and in fact are still used in late term abortions - we just do not have usage statistics from 20008 - present. Unless you can confirm a ban?
-So we don't have abortion stats for Kansas from 22 weeks and later: ...?
Click to expand...

As far as I know saline is no longer used in abortions in the United States there are medications used that are much safer.
I thought it was discontinued in the 1980s after JAMA reported accidental deaths of pregnant woman who had saline solution abortions.

Saline solutions had ill effects to the mother and there were several severe complication and maternal deaths had been reported in the 1970s. Sometimes an accidental direct injection or rapid absorption of the solution through the the uterus.

I posted the link with the Kansa stats in 2008.

Dr. Tiller was killed in 2010 and Kansas no longer has a late term abortion clinic.

As of 2013 there were only 4 clinic doctors and 3 clinics in the United States that perform abortions past 21 weeks.

By the way none of the clinics that perform abortions past 20 weeks is affiliated with Planned Parenthood.


From Romper:

In 2013, there were four doctors in the country who performed abortions after the 20th week of pregnancy, according to Slate. (Current numbers could be even lower.)
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Which States Offer Late-Term Abortions? They Are Very Difficult To Access
 
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Iron_Merc said:
You know, I've only been here for two weeks or so. And I've seen you around quite a bit. But your not really bringing anything to the table, are you?
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Here is the topic of discussion on the table:" Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

What I and millions of women bring to the table is that Constitutional right to be free from your religious beliefs.

You are bringing your God to the table who says the Constitution is wrong and women are not free.


Abortion has been made into a religious freedom issue by "Christian" conservatives.
 
Re: There's a cure

minnie616 said:
As far as I know saline is no longer used in abortions in the United States there are medications used that are much safer.
I thought it was discontinued in the 1980s after JAMA reported accidental deaths of pregnant woman who had saline solution abortions.

Saline solutions had ill effects to the mother and there were several severe complication and maternal deaths had been reported in the 1970s. Sometimes an accidental direct injection or rapid absorption of the solution through the the uterus.

I posted the link with the Kansa stats in 2008.

Dr. Tiller was killed in 2010 and Kansas no longer has a late term abortion clinic.

As of 2013 there were only 4 clinic doctors and 3 clinics in the United States that perform abortions past 21 weeks.

By the way none of the clinics that perform abortions past 20 weeks is affiliated with Planned Parenthood.


From Romper:



Which States Offer Late-Term Abortions? They Are Very Difficult To Access
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But you cannot say saline abortions are illegal, and the likelihood is that they are still being used, albeit in a more limited capacity. Its still a tool in the abortionists arsenal, so to speak. And boy, they certainly have a variety of killing methods... don't they?

You seem to be giving me all this very specific abortion information and facts about late term abortion, but yet I thought abortions aren't required by law to be reported? So that would mean your data could be heavily doctored. And late term abortions could be much more commonplace.

And, what, again, is your reason for wanting to kill these babies? I know you want the right under the pretense of religious liberty, is it because having children is an "oppressive restriction" imposed by authority on one's way of life, behavior, or political views?
Don't you think the actual "oppressive restriction" is you demanding to kill an innocent baby who has done nothing wrong? So you can blame the little baby for your actions?

Not sure how you can equate the womb to a killing chamber. The reality of the situation is abortion has been looked down upon as a despicable act for well over 2000 years.
 
Some more history

Iron_Merc said:
…


**We do not sacrifice unborn/half-born/new-born children to the forces of darkness**

This is because our founding document guarantees a birthright and DEMANDS a future for every single child
In reading, LIFE LIBERTY AND PERSUIT OF HAPPYNESS. We take that literally.

1) Are you saying planned parenthood doesn't target certain demographics? Or set up shop strategically in heavily populated areas?

…
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The unborn are not children. Roe v. Wade doesn't recognize a fetus as a person, except as the fetus is viable.

our founding document guarantees a birthright - Finally, we get to the nub, by your pen. It's birthright; the Supreme Court noted back in 1973 CE that only the born (or @ least viable) can be considered persons from a legal point of view. That's the entire argument right there, & you've quoted it accurately. Congratulations.

The notion of LIBERTY in the early US was routinely denied to indentured servants, women, children, most men - especially those not WASPish nor possessed of sufficient income &/or property, Blacks, Native Peoples, Jews, Roman Catholics & on & on, as noted previously. The franchise, the right to hold property, to serve on a militia, to possess weapons (firearms or swords or related), to serve on a jury or testify in court - all were restricted, if not forbidden outright. As I recall, only 6% of the people in the early US could vote @ all (in 1789).

planned parenthood doesn't target certain demographics? Or set up shop strategically in heavily populated areas?
Planned Parenthood has always set up near the population they mean to serve - for ease of customer access, to develop relationships with the customers & the neighborhood, & so on. The demographic that PP is interested in is whoever asks for service. PP's theory is that the economically well off have the resources to cope with birth control & family planning on their own - they don't need PP's help.

M. Sanger worked as a visiting nurse in the tenements in her day - helping doctors attend to women in labor. She decided that the most important factor in helping women & families there was to put family planning into the hands of the women & families directly involved. & that's what she did.
 
lwf said:
No, but you clearly agree with them. This says more about you than it does about the pro-choice.
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I can definitely see how it would appear that way, especially from the highlighted comment and a quick read through my signature. The democratic party (or the left) has "visionaries" "prophets" "leaders" "proponents" "advocates" and so on. A complex chain of command in a complex society. The majority of the democratic party is not any of those things you mentioned. I blame mostly the upper crust of the party for "monstrous and compassionless acts" because they dictate the direction and path and the evolution of the party. And if they are clear and concise and can get your emotions entangled in your political views, they can convince a lot of people that its not the aborted babies that are the problem here. Its the religious right that is the problem for telling us what we can and cannot do with our bodies. And so we reach a large sub set of followers, some known as democratic pawns, or people that believe the democrats are doing good for the blacks and minorities because "liberalism" feels so right. If I have the right attitude, and democratic politics and policy feel so warm and fuzzy, surely the entire party is not a sham? Surely the democrats are actually saying what they are doing and helping blacks, right? They must be helping inner city minorities get jobs and live independently, and follow after the American dream, right? They must be working on ways of decreasing poverty and helping the country move forward? Helping bring down crime and reduce drug problems? Helping fix the violence that afflicts our nations inner cities? All of these things and more, feel so right when you are a democrat, that its out of the question to think someone from your own party could be lying to you about ALL of them. Its out of the question to think that perhaps the most dangerous cities in this nation are controlled by the democrats and have been for decades. Its out of the question to believe that the most violent cities in this nation are controlled by democrats. Its out of the question to believe that democrats are bringing drugs into the country. And so on and so forth. My point is, you've been sold a lie. But the guy who sold you the lie is really good at what he does. It appeals to your human nature, it feels so right and it looks good on paper. What is this moral crap the right wingers are trying to stuff down my throat? And I cant blame any one of you for thinking that, that's the truth. The people I can blame are the ones at the top who know the truth and still lie to the American people. Who chose manipulation over education. Those who chose to subvert the authority of the constitution with malice and evil intent, those are the people that are heartless, compassionless monsters. Because they know the truth and they still choose to propagate the lie. The unfortunate reality is the more you push "God" out of our society the more room you give to "Satan". The culture war is real and the nation is finished, as far as I am concerned.

kdz94nkuabp01.jpg
 
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Call the question

Iron_Merc said:
I can definitely see how it would appear that way, especially from the highlighted comment and a quick read through my signature. The democratic party (or the left) has "visionaries" "prophets" "leaders" "proponents" "advocates" and so on. A complex chain of command in a complex society. The majority of the democratic party is not any of those things you mentioned. I blame mostly the upper crust of the party for "monstrous and compassionless acts" because they dictate the direction and path and the evolution of the party. And if they are clear and concise and can get your emotions entangled in your political views, they can convince a lot of people that its not the aborted babies that are the problem here. Its the religious right that is the problem for telling us what we can and cannot do with our bodies. And so we reach a large sub set of followers, some known as democratic pawns, or people that believe the democrats are doing good for the blacks and minorities because "liberalism" feels so right. If I have the right attitude, and democratic politics and policy feel so warm and fuzzy, surely the entire party is not a sham?

…

The unfortunate reality is the more you push "God" out of our society the more room you give to "Satan". The culture war is real and the nation is finished, as far as I am concerned.

...
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This is one long ad hominem attack. The US has been abandoning its big cities since @ least the 1920s, & with a vengeance since 1945. Please separate out for us, if you want to make the argument that it's the Democratic Party's electoral dominance that is causing the problems, the effects of the US abandonment of the cities, versus the detrimental effects of Democratic Party dominance of those cities.
 
Re: There's a cure

RaleBulgarian said:
I don’t know, or care, about 2,000 years ago, but pro-choice has majority support now.
Abortion Law: Global Comparisons | Council on Foreign Relations
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Who is telling you that? Your liberal leaning news source? That's in business to further the agenda of the "left"?
CFR is about as left as you can get, its a self fulling prophecy.

Truth is you are letting billion dollar globalist organizations (i.e. left wing media) tell you what to think and HOW to think. Not giving you a choice. This is unbelievable to me. That people would be so blind. That you would believe the liberal media over your own president.

You are listening to the same people that told you Hillary was leading every poll in every state until she got clobbered over the head by Donald Trump. How could these people have been so wrong about the election if they are clear and balanced? If they are just telling the truth, why was there so clearly a "Hillary" slant?

If Donald Trump told the liberal media that oxygen was good, Id be willing to bet a few people on the left wouldn't make it through the day.
 
Re: Call the question

southwest88 said:
This is one long ad hominem attack. The US has been abandoning its big cities since @ least the 1920s, & with a vengeance since 1945. Please separate out for us, if you want to make the argument that it's the Democratic Party's electoral dominance that is causing the problems, the effects of the US abandonment of the cities, versus the detrimental effects of Democratic Party dominance of those cities.
Click to expand...

ad ho·mi·nem definition: (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

My attack is directed towards democratic leadership, the party itself, not its constituents. As I clearly stated. What part to you is defined as ad hominem attack? And besides, even if it is there are cases in which ad hominem arguments are appropriate. For example, if a person states an opinion and another person calls their credibility into question, this may be a perfectly relevant response that invalidates the opinion.
 
Iron_Merc said:
I want to hear arguments for and against.

There are rumors that late term abortions have lead to some abortionists actually killing live babies AFTER BIRTH!

Killing a baby before the age of one is called infanticide.

If this turns out to be true and authorities don't stop them from carrying out these horrific crimes, this could be the first time in American history murder isn't prosecuted under the law.

And lets be clear, murder is:

The unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

There are no excuses the abortionist enthusiasts can make up, since the baby isn't a "fetus" anymore.
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Oh God. Another post birth abortion conspiracy theorist.

Seriously.

Find one prochoicer that believes killing an infant after birth is anything but murder that should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. See the multiple Gosnell threads.

You strike me as just another "pro-life" individual that likes to through crap up against the wall to see what sticks.
 
Re: There's a cure

Iron_Merc said:
Who is telling you that? Your liberal leaning news source? That's in business to further the agenda of the "left"?
CFR is about as left as you can get, its a self fulling prophecy.

Truth is you are letting billion dollar globalist organizations (i.e. left wing media) tell you what to think and HOW to think. Not giving you a choice. This is unbelievable to me. That people would be so blind. That you would believe the liberal media over your own president.

You are listening to the same people that told you Hillary was leading every poll in every state until she got clobbered over the head by Donald Trump. How could these people have been so wrong about the election if they are clear and balanced? If they are just telling the truth, why was there so clearly a "Hillary" slant?

If Donald Trump told the liberal media that oxygen was good, Id be willing to bet a few people on the left wouldn't make it through the day.
Click to expand...
A lot of crap to unpack.

First, I wouldn’t take Trump’s word on anything. No one with a functioning cerebrum would.

Second, CFR is about as fair/honest as it gets. Only far left or right groups or individual wing nuts would argue otherwise.

Third, the pollsters were correct in predicting Clinton’s popular vote victory. No organization predicted the EC outcome. And save the usual “Rasmussen got it right” drivel, because they also predicted Clinton would win, albeit by a close margin.

Lastly, it's crystal clear that the only information sources you utilize are those few that support your imagined world view. That’s sad.
 
Re: Call the question

southwest88 said:
This is one long ad hominem attack. The US has been abandoning its big cities since @ least the 1920s, & with a vengeance since 1945. Please separate out for us, if you want to make the argument that it's the Democratic Party's electoral dominance that is causing the problems, the effects of the US abandonment of the cities, versus the detrimental effects of Democratic Party dominance of those cities.
Click to expand...

ad ho·mi·nem definition: (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

My attack is directed towards democratic leadership, the party itself, not its constituents. As I clearly stated. What part to you is defined as ad hominem attack?
 
year2late said:
Oh God. Another post birth abortion conspiracy theorist.

Seriously.

Find one prochoicer that believes killing an infant after birth is anything but murder that should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. See the multiple Gosnell threads.

You strike me as just another "pro-life" individual that likes to through crap up against the wall to see what sticks.
Click to expand...

Are you one of those "pro-birth" conspiracy theorists? As in the people who think conservatives only care about the person UNTIL they are born?
 
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