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We Know the Cure for Poverty: The Empowerment of Women

Iron_Merc said:
I will address all your points, sorry I missed it. In regards to PP moving on, well I don't see that because if anything it is still an organization that kills babies. I believe it is an ethical or moral obligation to keep the baby, this is why I still am opposed to the very fundamentals of planned parenthood.
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So then your using Margaret Sanger are just an attempt to discredit PP dishonestly?

And PP is an organization that provides reproductive services and counseling for women/families.

You are welcome to your belief but you are not allowed to force it by law on others that do not believe the same.

I don't feel like we should play God with our human race, in my opinion that's just asking for trouble.
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There are no negative effects of abortion on society. If you believe there are, please list some.

Sure, abortion is legal in the eyes of the law, but there is a higher court than that of man.
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Previously posted:

It is an incredibly arrogant, sinful position. God gave us all free will. And yet here some are, promoting laws that would force God's Will on people. They would see the govt usurp the Lord's Authority :doh

The Lord chose to give us the free will to decide to follow Him and His Laws or not...and yet we have many sinfully extreme Christians here who think they should use force of human law when God specifically chose not to.

Those people will get quite a surprise someday...trying to undermine God's Will is no small trifle.

Not just hypocritical, it's committing an enormous sin of arrogance and denial of God's Will.

And unless there is recognition of that sin and repentance...there'll be no entrance into Heaven. One must ask forgiveness to be forgiven...it is God's Promise...and God's Judgment.​
 
WCH said:
As far as a reply, you didn't give me much to work with. Perhaps it was your lack of empathy.

You assume it has no conscious but, it's still a living being that whose life you have devalued.
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It's not DEvalued persay, just less valuable than the woman it's inside of. Bodily autonomy for the sapient and self-aware comes far before the bodily autonomy of those that only exist as growing clumps of meat inside of the sapient and self-aware.

Fetuses aren't babies.
 
Iron_Merc said:
For me, everything about PP is eclipsed by the practice of abortion. If Planned Parenthood does good things for the neighborhood, more power to them. But I still cant justify that in the face of close to 50 million abortions and that is a very low estimate. These are humans who had no chance. So I fight for life, you better believe it. I want to protect the unborn baby, not bring harm to it!
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And apparently dont care what it means to the entirety of the life of the woman, her own self-determination. You would see the law force women to sacrifice their bodily sovereignty and self-determination in order to provide those for the unborn. Why are the unborn more deserving of the exact same things?

The born and unborn cannot be treated equally under the law, it's not possible. Including under God's Law. If there is, please explain.

I value the unborn, but I value all born people more.

You, from the post quoted above...value the unborn more than women. Is this correct? It's exactly what your words imply.

I believe in quality of life, you believe in quantity.
 
Rickeroo said:
Dying in childbirth is rare. Everyone knows that most abortions aren't to save the mother, and they aren't because the fetus is malformed. They are performed for convenience reasons that had we had a voice, we would not have consented to.

You speak of women and the unborn. "I" was the unborn. I know what would have happened if I was aborted. All my stats, all my typing, all my arguments stem from one source, one fact: "I" was the unborn you're talking about.
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The unborn are voiceless because they're nonsentient clumps of meat. Ergo, their nonexistent preferences are not taken into account when the question of bodily autonomy comes up.
 
Iron_Merc said:
Okay, so tell me how to think, if you want me to open my mind explain to me why I shouldn't evaluate PP on the primary basis of abortions. Im all ears.
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The more counseling women/couples get, the more educated about birth control and the more available it is...the fewer abortions occur.

The more education on prenatal nutrition and vitamins, the better pregnant women learn to care for themselves during pregnancy, the more they learn about the effects of smoking, drinking, etc on their unborn...the more healthy babies will be born.
 
Obscurity said:
The only what if that matters is "What if you just minded your own ****ing business?"

Can we get to that, now?
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Sure.
What business are you referring to?
I still like your sig.
 
Rickeroo said:
Dying in childbirth is rare. Everyone knows that most abortions aren't to save the mother, and they aren't because the fetus is malformed. They are performed for convenience reasons that had we had a voice, we would not have consented to.

You speak of women and the unborn. "I" was the unborn. I know what would have happened if I was aborted. All my stats, all my typing, all my arguments stem from one source, one fact: "I" was the unborn you're talking about.
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Back to numbers? YOu just ignored everything I wrote about the significance of that risk on women and their loved ones.

And if you are saying you are reducing your arguments to what "you" would choose....then it's as ludicrous as I have already written that we should assume that for all unborn...or women.

You didnt make any argument against what I wrote...you just went back to the dehumanization of numbers.

You seem to have zero arguments that refute mine. You refuse to even acknowledge mine. That...is failure on your part.
 
WCH said:
As far as a reply, you didn't give me much to work with. Perhaps it was your lack of empathy.
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You have never exhibited a single bit of empathy for women. Your hypocrisy is mind-boggling.
 
Iron_Merc said:
First off, there is no such thing as a pro choice Christian woman. They don't truly know God, if that is the case.

I believe the unborn is just as valuable as the born, not more or less. I think all our hopes and dreams and aspirations are placed in our children, and that IS A GOOD THING.

Remember, just because its "legal" doesn't make it right in Gods eyes. The RCRC is clearly pro choice. This is not acceptable in my opinion.
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I'm a pro-choice practicing Christian and you have zero right to judge my faith in our Lord. And He has made that very very clear...your arrogance and judgement is a sin and if you dont repent, you will never meet Him.
 
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Iron_Merc said:
I believe the unborn is just as valuable as the born, not more or less. I think all our hopes and dreams and aspirations are placed in our children, and that IS A GOOD THING.
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The born and unborn cannot be treated equally...not under US law and not under God's Law. Please explain how if you believe they can be.
 
Iron_Merc said:
So, as I am one who stands with the dissenters on the ruling of Roe Vs Wade, I would ask proponents to show me exactly what and where in the constitution this "so called right to privacy" exists, ie. what specific language of the constitution was used to justify this ruling? Be explicit.
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From the following Live Science article:

Constitutional rights

The right to privacy often means the right to personal autonomy, or the right to choose whether or not to engage in certain acts or have certain experiences. Several amendments to the U.S. Constitution have been used in varying degrees of success in determining a right to personal autonomy:

The First Amendment protects the privacy of beliefs

The Third Amendment protects the privacy of the home against the use of it for housing soldiers
The Fourth Amendment protects privacy against unreasonable searches
The Fifth Amendment protects against self-incrimination, which in turn protects the privacy of personal information
The Ninth Amendment says that the "enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage other rights retained by the people." This has been interpreted as justification for broadly reading the Bill of Rights to protect privacy in ways not specifically provided in the first eight amendments.


The right to privacy is most often cited in the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment, which states:



No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

However, the protections have been narrowly defined and usually only pertain to family, marriage, motherhood, procreation and child rearing.

For example, the Supreme Court first recognized that the various Bill of Rights guarantees creates a "zone of privacy" in Griswold v. Connecticut, a 1965 ruling that upheld marital privacy and struck down bans on contraception.
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Read more :

Right to Privacy: Constitutional Rights & Privacy Laws | Live Science
 
Iron_Merc said:
Even if there is no God, you cant argue with the fact that abortion is unnatural.
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Nope, wrong again. Maybe you should study biology as in-depth as you have studied the Bible.

In the natural world, nature values the reproductive adult more than the young. Because juveniles have a much higher mortality rate and have less chance of surviving to pass on their genes. The reproductive adult is the better investment, as she has proven her ability to breed and has a much higher survival rate.

In nature, when resources are scarce, when there are natural disasters, in times of extreme stress where the adult female's ability to survive is at risk, pregnant mothers abort, they adsorb fetuses (yes, I spelled that correctly), and new mothers they eat their young. These are natural instincts and processes that preserve the breeding adult, who is the better investment in nature.

This is exactly why women choose abortion...to protect their lives, their ability to survive in society, and to protect their dependents (most women who have abortions already have at least one child already and may have elderly, disabled, others to care for.)

Survival is the entirety of a life. A life is more than just breathing.
 
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Logician Man said:
What was the ratio of Conservative vs. Liberal Scotus members when Roe vs. Wade was ruled on ?....and what was the vote count ?
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*raises hand*

I know! I know!
 
Lursa said:
Now where do black Americans fall on the socio-economic scale? Probably comparable. High risks in those areas is what drives women to abort...the lists of reasons are very clear...there's no programs or initiative targeting any race or women, period. Women who dont feel they can safely support a child, or another child, must make the best decisions they can.
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Also Black women are 3 to 4 times more likely to die during childbirth. If they had complications with a past pregnancy they may be more likely to abort because they want to care for the child/ children they already have.

From a Feb 2019 article:

Black women are three to four times more likely to die from pregnancy-related causes than white women, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. It's partly why the overall rate of pregnancy-related deaths has climbed over the past two decades, %making the maternal mortality rate in the United States the worst in any industrialized country, according to a 2016 analysis published in the journal The Lancet.
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Why are black women at such high risk of dying from pregnancy complications? | American Heart Association
 
Lursa said:
Back to numbers? YOu just ignored everything I wrote about the significance of that risk on women and their loved ones.

And if you are saying you are reducing your arguments to what "you" would choose....then it's as ludicrous as I have already written that we should assume that for all unborn...or women.

You didnt make any argument against what I wrote...you just went back to the dehumanization of numbers.

You seem to have zero arguments that refute mine. You refuse to even acknowledge mine. That...is failure on your part.
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No numbers required, although they do demonstrate the significance of "I", in "I was the unborn". That phrase is true for every person walking the Earth today.

When abortion is championed, it decreases the sanctity of my own life, because I was once the unborn. It also decreases the value of my children's lives, since they were also unborn. Because there is abortion on demand, my mother could have aborted me on a whim. All my experiences since then would have never taken place. I value those experiences, and the continuation of them. Sacrifice that because my mom thought she "couldn't afford" me? Nope.

If I "didn't care" if I was aborted - if I truly did not care - I would then consider my life worthless and commit suicide, or at the very least not cared whether I lived or died. I don't feel that way, and I suspect that 99% of aborted fetuses, if allowed to live, would feel the same way to. Actually closer to 99.9%.
 
minnie616 said:
Also Black women are 3 to 4 times more likely to die during childbirth. If they had complications with a past pregnancy they may be more likely to abort because they want to care for the child/ children they already have.

From a Feb 2019 article:



Why are black women at such high risk of dying from pregnancy complications? | American Heart Association
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Thank you for the info. Black women are also more pre-disposed to high blood pressure, and that may be one of the things that leads to their higher risk (leading to strokes as the article mentioned). Thankfully, we have medical professionals, such as at PP and other organizations, that help educate women and minimize their risk.
 
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Rickeroo said:
No numbers required, although they do demonstrate the significance of "I", in "I was the unborn". That phrase is true for every person walking the Earth today.

When abortion is championed, it decreases the sanctity of my own life, because I was once the unborn. It also decreases the value of my children's lives, since they were also unborn. Because there is abortion on demand, my mother could have aborted me on a whim. All my experiences since then would have never taken place. I value those experiences, and the continuation of them. Sacrifice that because my mom thought she "couldn't afford" me? Nope.

If I "didn't care" if I was aborted - if I truly did not care - I would then consider my life worthless and commit suicide, or at the very least not cared whether I lived or died. I don't feel that way, and I suspect that 99% of aborted fetuses, if allowed to live, would feel the same way to. Actually closer to 99.9%.
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Of course you referred to numbers again...what do you think 'rare' involves? :doh

And once again, you address nothing in my post directly, and make no arguments at all

In case you havent noticed, even tho I've written it more than once...I dont remotely consider your personal feelings on your life valid in this argument and have provided a broader base for my argument...one that considers American's beliefs on life overall.
 
Scrabaholic said:
This is why couples should discuss what they would do in the event of unplanned pregnancy BEFORE getting into bed.
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This was over 30 years ago. Who do you know discussed abortion back then?
 
WCH said:
This was over 30 years ago. Who do you know discussed abortion back then?
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That is one ginormous excuse. ^^

You were a couple and it was a legal, accessible option at the time.
 
Lursa said:
Of course you referred to numbers again...what do you think 'rare' involves? :doh

And once again, you address nothing in my post directly, and make no arguments at all

In case you havent noticed, even tho I've written it more than once...I dont remotely consider your personal feelings on your life valid in this argument and have provided a broader base for my argument...one that considers American's beliefs on life overall.
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American's beliefs, at least for their selfish selves, are to stay alive. That's why so many choose to stay alive. When it comes to people other than themselves, particularly those in the unborn stage, half of Americans don't really care, because after all, they made it past their unborn stage. It's not their life that's ending.
 
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