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We Know the Cure for Poverty: The Empowerment of Women

eman623 said:
Why is it that progressives have this authoritarian need to "fix" people who have different opinions than themselves? Agree to disagree is not in their worldview.
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You dont need to be fixed...I doubt most of you can be.

We just need to prevent you from forcing your will on American women (for this particular issue). And we have a Constitution that does exactly that...it protects all women from people like you.
 
minnie616 said:
92 percent of non spontaneous abortions occur in the United States during the first trimester. Over 60 percent in the first 8 weeks before the unborn is even a fetus.

BTW gestation is counted from the first day of the period so a woman is counted as 2 gestational weeks pregnant on the day she conceives.
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I'll be on board when certain conditions are met. The combination of 92%, 60%, 8 weeks and 2 weeks, while certainly impressive as figures, are failing to convince healthy, normal people to suddenly decide they really should have been aborted and then commit suicide. It may be that perhaps if the figures changed to 90%, 55%, 7 weeks and 3 weeks, healthy people would see the light and take the advice that they have absolutely no issue giving to a healthy fetus: abort / suicide. Minnie, no amount of numbers or stats will change the dynamic by which I judge abortion.
 
minnie616 said:
Actually suicide is the 10th leading cause of death in the United States.

More facts:

The age-adjusted suicide rate in 2017 was 14.0 per 100,000 individuals.

The rate of suicide is highest in middle-age white men in particular.

In 2017, men died by suicide 3.54x more often than women.

On average, there are 129 suicides per day.

White males accounted for 69.67% of suicide deaths in 2017.

In 2017, firearms accounted for 50.57% of all suicides.
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These people are given the benefit of deciding for themselves.
 
Lursa said:
People choose to give up life for other things all the time: family, religion, their country, principles, etc. I hope you dont believe that you nor the govt have the right to assume what individual people would choose?

Btw, there have been at least 5 people now, on this sub-forum, that have said they wished that they had been aborted. As sad as that is...think about how small a sampling this forum is of the general population and then realize that you cannot assume for others.
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Roughly 19% of pregnancies end in a willful abortion per year, the equivalent of 57 million people if scaled to the US population. 47,000 commit suicide each year. Therefore, I'd be amenable to a .016% of pregnancies ending in abortion. I'd even go 0.16%.
 
Rickeroo said:
Roughly 19% of pregnancies end in a willful abortion per year, the equivalent of 57 million people if scaled to the US population. 47,000 commit suicide each year. Therefore, I'd be amenable to a .016% of pregnancies ending in abortion. I'd even go 0.16%.
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What does that have to do with presuming you or the govt knows what an unborn would want or choose? You are avoiding my argument completely. Please do so.

And what does your post matter? There are no negative effects of abortion on society. If there are, please list them.
 
Rickeroo said:
These people are given the benefit of deciding for themselves.
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So then why shouldnt pregnant women? Who have their own lives and health to consider? Most women who choose abortion have at least one kid already...what about their responsibilities to them or other dependents, like elderly or disabled? Or their obligations and commitments to their employers, community, society, etc?
 
Rickeroo said:
These people are given the benefit of deciding for themselves.
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And pregnant women in the US may legally decide for themselves if they wish to try ( since miscarriage may happen ) to continue their pregnancy or opt for an abortion.
 
Lursa said:
What does that have to do with presuming you or the govt knows what an unborn would want or choose? You are avoiding my argument completely. Please do so.

And what does your post matter? There are no negative effects of abortion on society. If there are, please list them.
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A few things tell me that if a fetus is allowed time enough choose, it would not choose to end its life. We see this in the 0.0143% suicide rate. We have all matured past our fetal stage, and 99.9857% of us are "choosing" to live each year.

Conversely, the willful abortion rate is 1228% higher than the suicide rate. To put that in perspective, a drive from Boston to LA is 2983 miles. Because of suicide, people lie dead in the first half mile of the trip. Because of abortion, dead fetuses are strewn for 566 miles. It's a math thing for me - I just don't see the same willingness in adults to off themselves at the same rate they would off "not themselves".
 
Rickeroo said:
A few things tell me that if a fetus is allowed time enough choose, it would not choose to end its life. ...

It's a math thing for me - I just don't see the same willingness in adults to off themselves at the same rate they would off "not themselves".
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Do you want to talk math?

A zygote does not get to chose whether or not it wishes to implant in a womb.

An unborn is just a maybe.

No woman should be forced by law to overlook her well being , her health , and perhaps her very life for a maybe.

As I said most zygotes pass through the body without even implanting and many that had implanted self abort in the first week.
( That accounts for about two- thirds of all zygotes within about 2 weeks from fertilization. )

Another 15 to 20 percent of known pregnancies ( when the woman is aware she is pregnant ) miscarry naturally even if the woman really wants to maintain and continue her pregnacy until childbirth. The woman has no choice when natural miscarriages occur.

Most miscarriages ( about 90 percent ) occur within the first trimester but others occur later.

Fact is I had a miscarriage at about 20 weeks.

My husband and I were looking forward to a new addition to our family and our 2 children were looking forward to a new brother or

sister. Unfortunately I started having reall strong contractions , my husband rushed me the ER hoping they could stop the contractions and I could continue my pregnancy and have a healthy little one.

A nurse gave me a pregnancy test and told my husband and I was no longer pregnant. The fetus had died within my womb.

To make a long story shorter my little one was expelled when transferring from the gurney to a bed , I accidentally saw it and it very malformed. My doctor later told me it never would have lived even if I had carried it longer. Pathology told him it was too malformed to even have survived birth. It was so malformed that they could even tell if it was a boy or a girl.
 
The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice treasures the religious freedom guaranteed Americans since our nation’s founding.
 
minnie616 said:
Do you want to talk math?

A zygote does not get to chose whether or not it wishes to implant in a womb.

An unborn is just a maybe.

No woman should be forced by law to overlook her well being , her health , and perhaps her very life for a maybe.

As I said most zygotes pass through the body without even implanting and many that had implanted self abort in the first week.
( That accounts for about two- thirds of all zygotes within about 2 weeks from fertilization. )

Another 15 to 20 percent of known pregnancies ( when the woman is aware she is pregnant ) miscarry naturally even if the woman really wants to maintain and continue her pregnacy until childbirth. The woman has no choice when natural miscarriages occur.

Most miscarriages ( about 90 percent ) occur within the first trimester but others occur later.

Fact is I had a miscarriage at about 20 weeks.

My husband and I were looking forward to a new addition to our family and our 2 children were looking forward to a new brother or

sister. Unfortunately I started having reall strong contractions , my husband rushed me the ER hoping they could stop the contractions and I could continue my pregnancy and have a healthy little one.

A nurse gave me a pregnancy test and told my husband and I was no longer pregnant. The fetus had died within my womb.

To make a long story shorter my little one was expelled when transferring from the gurney to a bed , I accidentally saw it and it very malformed. My doctor later told me it never would have lived even if I had carried it longer. Pathology told him it was too malformed to even have survived birth. It was so malformed that they could even tell if it was a boy or a girl.
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First off, I'm sorry you had to experience that. If I were that malformed fetus, then I'd want to be aborted, and I'd be glad that I was. However, for on-demand recreational abortions, ones where the life of the mother or fetus isn't in jeopardy, I look to the suicide rate for guidance as to who would have chosen to be aborted as a healthy fetus.
 
WCH said:
If you can't see the evil of abortion for convenience then, I can help your confusion. Having a child taken from me through an unwanted abortion might have shaped my opinion.
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Did you find out her intentions before unzipping your pants?
 
Lursa said:
That is a completely possible choice for families. They can decide where to live and how many consumer goods they want to buy.
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They can also work different shifts so that one of them is home w/ the children.
 
Rickeroo said:
If you're for freedom (which is a nice thing to be for), but wouldn't undergo the procedure yourself, this suggests that the procedure is a negative. Perhaps under certain circumstances you would consent to the procedure? For example, I may consent if I had a grievous disability with no hope for recovery. However, in perfect health and developing like any other human would (including the aborter), I would not consent. Doesn't sound like freedom to me.
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I am all for amputation of a diseased limb, but would never allow it on myself. Why does a woman have to abort to be pro choice?
 
Obscurity said:
It's everyone else; we need a sane conversation, not a theocratic manifesto of bronze age war god panderings.
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You are correct, we do need a sane conversation about abortionists selling aborted baby parts to the highest bidder.

Yes, we do need to talk about that. Very sick, very VERY sick.

And here is what Mother Teresa had to say about abortion:

Mother-Teresa-Quote.jpg

mt.jpg

quote-abortion-is-murder-in-the-womb-a-child-is-a-gift-of-god-if-you-do-not-want-him-give-mother.jpg

AND YOUR ROLE MODEL IS SANGER? Yes, we do need a sane conversation.

sanger-1-quote.jpg
 
Iron_Merc said:
AND YOUR ROLE MODEL IS SANGER? Yes, we do need a sane conversation.

View attachment 67263897
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First, you need to be an honest debater.

Sanger’s entire comment.
“We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members”
Margaret Sanger, Race and Eugenics: A Complicated History | Time

Poorly stated, but absolutely not talking about genocide.
 
Rickeroo said:
A few things tell me that if a fetus is allowed time enough choose, it would not choose to end its life. We see this in the 0.0143% suicide rate. We have all matured past our fetal stage, and 99.9857% of us are "choosing" to live each year.

Conversely, the willful abortion rate is 1228% higher than the suicide rate. To put that in perspective, a drive from Boston to LA is 2983 miles. Because of suicide, people lie dead in the first half mile of the trip. Because of abortion, dead fetuses are strewn for 566 miles. It's a math thing for me - I just don't see the same willingness in adults to off themselves at the same rate they would off "not themselves".
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Doesn't matter. A woman is not obligated to allow her body to be used as life support if she does not want to.
 
Scrabaholic said:
Doesn't matter. A woman is not obligated to allow her body to be used as life support if she does not want to.
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I imagine that you are in the 99.9857% of us who chose to live in the past year? It's easy for me to say "It doesn't matter", because I made it through the gauntlet. Those that don't make it obviously aren't me, so why should I care? I get to live regardless.
 
Rickeroo said:
I imagine that you are in the 99.9857% of us who chose to live in the past year? It's easy for me to say "It doesn't matter", because I made it through the gauntlet. Those that don't make it obviously aren't me, so why should I care? I get to live regardless.
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This has nothing to do w/ whether a woman should be obligated to allow her body to be used for life support against her will.

BTW, the thing that birthed me should have aborted all her pregnancies. She had no business giving birth. And FYI, my half sister and adopted brother both committed suicide. I'm pretty sure they thought they should have been aborted while an embryo.
 
RaleBulgarian said:
First, you need to be an honest debater.

Sanger’s entire comment.
“We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members”
Margaret Sanger, Race and Eugenics: A Complicated History | Time

Poorly stated, but absolutely not talking about genocide.
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WRONG.

You failed to mention the sentences above it to give the true "context" of her comment:
Also, when you read the entire letter it becomes clear she is in fact talking about genocide.

Capturetest.jpg
She is talking about hiring black staff and black doctors in order to frame the ideals ang goals of Planned Parenthood, and especially tailor them to African Americans. In essence, she wants to put black women at ease respective to the motives of Planned Parenthood.
She is saying a black doctor could more easily placate the fear or rumor that Planned Parenthood intends to exterminate the black race.
Ergo, she is talking about genocide. And the (minister) is there to affirm that planned parenthood does not have any ulterior motives. And to articulate this to their black clientele.

Genocide? Yeah I think that's what Planned Parenthood is ALL about:
DpQ33hwUcAAd1r0.jpg
 
Iron_Merc said:
WRONG.

You failed to mention the sentences above it to give the true "context" of her comment:
Also, when you read the entire letter it becomes clear she is in fact talking about genocide.

View attachment 67263901
She is talking about hiring black staff and black doctors in order to frame the ideals ang goals of Planned Parenthood, and especially tailor them to African Americans. In essence, she wants to put black women at ease respective to the motives of Planned Parenthood.
She is saying a black doctor could more easily placate the fear or rumor that Planned Parenthood intends to exterminate the black race.
Ergo, she is talking about genocide. And the (minister) is there to affirm that planned parenthood does not have any ulterior motives. And to articulate this to their black clientele.

Genocide? Yeah I think that's what Planned Parenthood is ALL about:
View attachment 67263902
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Nothing in Sanger’s comments can be reasonably interpreted as endorsing genocide. Only those who want to read “genocide” see that in her words.

Sanger did, however, believe in and support the idea of a variant form of eugenics. Although not an accepted idea either, factually, it is far different from genocide.

* Note - When you include references in your posts, it is customary to provide a link to the source so that others can judge the validity of those references for themselves. Without the link, your attachments are worthless.
 
Rickeroo said:
First off, I'm sorry you had to experience that. If I were that malformed fetus, then I'd want to be aborted, and I'd be glad that I was. However, for on-demand recreational abortions, ones where the life of the mother or fetus isn't in jeopardy, I look to the suicide rate for guidance as to who would have chosen to be aborted as a healthy fetus.
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Any pregnancy can put the life of the pregnant woman in jeopardy. It is not always predictable when her life is/ will be in jeopardy.

Any pregnancy can take a turn at a moments notice and put the woman’s health and even her life at risk, at a point where an abortion once the symptoms are there will be too late to prevent a death of the woman or lifelong major irreparable disability.

That’s why no woman should be forced to take the risk if she wants an early elective abortion it should be her choice not to risk the pregnancy. Some women can sence there is something wrong ahead of time.


Life threatening complications aren't rare up to 8 percent of all pregnancies affected by pre- eclampsia or one of it's variants including HELLP syndrome.

We never know when a pregnancy might take a turn and become life threatening to someone we love.

Another 1 to 2.5 percent of pregnancies are ectopic pregnancies which are also life threatening.

So about 1 out 10 pregnancies can be life threatening just from 2 of the many types of life threatening complications.... eclampsia variants and ectopic pregnancies.

My daughter had HELLP syndrome with her pregnancy and she was very close to death when they performed the emergency
C section.

She went to the ER a few weeks before her due date because she was getting a horrible pain in her back just below her ribs which was caused because her liver was being damaged from the HELLP syndrome.

Usually there is pain the upper right part of the abdomen but her pain was in the back because her liver was swelling and shutting down.
They were worried her liver might fail.


Her OB/GYN was shocked when her test results came back showing she had HELLP syndrome. She had just seen him a couple days before and everything with the pregnancy appeared fine then.

My daughter was one the up to 8 percent of women in the US who every year developes 'preeclampsia, eclampsia, or a related condition such as HELLP syndrome." Thankfully she was not one of the roughly 300 US women who do die from the syndrome every year but she was one of the roughly 75,000 women every year who are counted as near misses.

From the following article:

Every year in the U.S., up to 8 percent, or 300,000, of pregnant or postpartum women develop preeclampsia, eclampsia, or a related condition such as HELLP syndrome.

Roughly 300 women die, and another 75,000 women experience “near misses”— severe complications and injury such as organ failure, massive blood loss, permanent disability, and premature birth or death of their babies.
Usually, the disease resolves with the birth of the baby and placenta. But, it can occur postpartum—indeed, most maternal deaths occur after delivery.[/B]
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Beyond Downton Abbey: Preeclampsia Maternal Deaths Continue Today


A little more about HELLP Syndrome:

HELLP syndrome is a life-threatening pregnancy complication usually considered to be a variant of preeclampsia. Both conditions usually occur during the later stages of pregnancy, or sometimes after childbirth.

HELLP syndrome was named by Dr. Louis Weinstein in 1982 after its characteristics:

H (hemolysis, which is the breaking down of red blood cells)
EL (elevated liver enzymes)
LP (low platelet count)

HELLP syndrome can be difficult to diagnose, especially when high blood pressure and protein in the urine aren't present. Its symptoms are sometimes mistaken for gastritis, flu, acute hepatitis, gall bladder disease, or other conditions.

The global mortality rate of HELLP syndrome has been reported to be as high as 25%.
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HELLP Syndrome: Preeclampsia Foundation


Now many women like myself and my daughter continue our pregnancies because we wish to become parents.

But I cannot support a law or a country that does not allow elective abortions and thus forces women to continue a pregnancy that may very well put her long term health or life at risk.

On the other side of the coin I could not support a law or a country that would force a women to have an abortion against her will even if her unborn were so malformed that if it did survive birth it would cost taxpayers millions of dollars in medical care.

Each woman should have the legal option to choose whether or not she wishes to continue her pregnancy.
 
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