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We Know the Cure for Poverty: The Empowerment of Women

They have nothing to do with each other.

And it's ridiculous to claim either is consensual when there is only one person involved in each.

OK...here's a similarity: the person acting makes that personal decision for him or herself. And it's ridiculous to pretend the unborn consent to anything, and they are not persons. Even minors cannot consent, so it's ludicrous to imagine the unborn doing so. I have already discounted your personal belief that since YOU (imagine :roll:) you wanted to live, that everyone else does...even when I posted information that proved not everyone believes as you do.

Are you saying that I wasn't unborn during those 9 months because the US government didn't consider me a person yet? The government has no say in what a biological constant is. The government can certainly declare me worthless and disposable, as governments have done to various demographics in the past, but they can not change the fact that I was me since conception. Aborting me at 2 months gestation would have destroyed "me". Or am I not me because I was too young to realize I was me, or I wasn't me because I depended on a womb to sustain "me"?
 
Are you saying that I wasn't unborn during those 9 months because the US government didn't consider me a person yet? The government has no say in what a biological constant is. The government can certainly declare me worthless and disposable, as governments have done to various demographics in the past, but they can not change the fact that I was me since conception. Aborting me at 2 months gestation would have destroyed "me". Or am I not me because I was too young to realize I was me, or I wasn't me because I depended on a womb to sustain "me"?

Had you been aborted at two or months gestation you never would known just as if you never would have known you had existed.

Just like had you been miscarried at two or 3 months gestation you never would have known you had existed.

So you would not have missed the fact that you had one time existed.

About 90 percent of miscarriages occur during the first trimester.

In the US 92 percent of abortions occur during the first trimester and over 60 percent during the first 8 weeks of gestation.

The unborn are completely unaware that a miscarriage or abortion had occurred.
 
Lursa -

Yeah I more or less agree with the sin part. Like I said earlier, I'm not trying to ram religion down your throat.

For additional questions please follow this link:
The Case Against Abortion: Part of the Mother’s Body?

Yes, that is -precisely- what is going on. The religious using religious belief bought and sold by the hacks at the catholic church, combined with the evangelical movement, created a subset of voters who are obsessed with the rights of unborn even when the bible says life begins at the first breath.

I have zero tolerance for any argument that the "pro-life" position is not religious. Religion is the GENESIS of this movement. It is the FACADE of this movement. It is the nature, and the demeanor. It is the mask and the face.

Atheists who espouse pro-birth ideological perspectives are so few as to be a statistical irrelevance.

Make no mistake. This movement is religious, through and through, and has been since the beginning.
 
Had you been aborted at two or months gestation you never would known just as if you never would have known you had existed.

Just like had you been miscarried at two or 3 months gestation you never would have known you had existed.

So you would not have missed the fact that you had one time existed.

About 90 percent of miscarriages occur during the first trimester.

In the US 92 percent of abortions occur during the first trimester and over 60 percent during the first 8 weeks of gestation.

The unborn are completely unaware that a miscarriage or abortion had occurred.

Since I was unaware, then I was not me at 2 months gestation? If I was not me due to my lack of awareness at 2 months, then "me" would not have been aborted, and I'd still be here somehow. Maybe I'd turn up in another womb down the road? There's also a possibility that 'unaware Rickeroo' was aborted back in 1839, but it really wasn't me since I wasn't aware, and then the real me could pop up in the early 1970's to be able to type this.
 
You mean, be more like men? No thanks.

so-much-awesome-meme.jpg
 
Since I was unaware, then I was not me at 2 months gestation? If I was not me due to my lack of awareness at 2 months, then "me" would not have been aborted, and I'd still be here somehow. Maybe I'd turn up in another womb down the road? There's also a possibility that 'unaware Rickeroo' was aborted back in 1839, but it really wasn't me since I wasn't aware, and then the real me could pop up in the early 1970's to be able to type this.

Then why do you care?

Some people do believe in reincarnation. It possible I lived another life and died on the Titanic during its maiden voyage when he struck the iceburg and sunk in the ocean.

But that makes no difference and I sure don’t care or obsess over it.

My mother had RH negative blood type. I have an older sis.

My mom had two miscarriages between my sister and myself. I born in the early 1950s and have RH negative blood two.

The RH factor was discovered in the late 1040s or early 50s

It was discovered if the woman was RH negative and had a RH positive baby some of the blood may leak into system during childbirth and she will build up antibodies. The next time she is pregnant if the unborn has RH positive blood her body will start to attack the embryo/fetus as a foreign bodily.

I had RH negative blood therefore I was not miscarried.

If I had been RH positive, my mom likely would have miscarried me.

Do I obsess about that ? No, I don’t I just mention the fact if I had miscarried ,I would not have known.

If my mom felt an abortion was best for whatever reason, I would not have known.

Would I have existed ? Yes, for a short period of time but I would have been unaware.

The point is ...why do seem to fantasize so much about the unborn?

I value the unborn but they are only maybes and are aware.
I value the born more , they are aware, they are already a part of society.
They have friends, and family and loved ones who know they exist.
 
A Hitchens quote that has seemingly escaped the pro-birth crowd:

[video=youtube;7jO2Uk0zU4c]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jO2Uk0zU4c[video]

Think of the stark progress the pro-birthers are trying to destroy; the ability for a thinking, contributing, personified member of our public being forced to endure something against their will; being forced to allow another entity (not a person) to use their life force; to then cut funding for aide to people; and to criminalize a medical procedure.

This is precisely why the overton window must be shifted back to the center.

These conversations, about abortion, and many other issues deemed sanct to the religious right, are not conversations a super power, western, advanced nation should be having; the case is closed. We know the result of backward thinking; we've LIVED the reality of the pro-birth position and have changed our ways, and yet, the pro-birth crowd insists it will be.. different, this time.

No, it won't. Enabling their vampiric religious belief to enact policy and undermine jurisprudence and constitutional rights will destroy this country.

Im not anti-abortion, but no one is forcing them to have sex or get pregnant, that I know of. They are already empowered.
 
Im not anti-abortion, but no one is forcing them to have sex or get pregnant, that I know of. They are already empowered.

No one said anything about forcing them to have sex. Freedom of choice says you can consent to sex but not pregnancy. No one I know consents to cancer because they chose to smoke.
 
Men who make these women kill their own children, yep.

Men most mostly kill people’s children—90% of the time per latest statistics.
 
So the main problem I see is that you are incorrectly conflating the term privacy to mean "behavior" or "anything goes" These are two separate things. And not to mention, the term privacy implies an overarching code of conduct.

.

False.

From Roe Part II

James Hubert Hallford, a licensed physician, sought and was granted leave to intervene in Roe's action. In his complaint, he alleged that he had been arrested previously for violations of the Texas abortion statutes, and [p121] that two such prosecutions were pending against him. He described conditions of patients who came to him seeking abortions, and he claimed that for many cases he, as a physician, was unable to determine whether they fell within or outside the exception recognized by Article 1196. He alleged that, as a consequence, the statutes were vague and uncertain, in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment, and that they violated his own and his patients' rights to privacy in the doctor-patient relationship and his own right to practice medicine, rights he claimed were guaranteed by the First, Fourth, Fifth, Ninth, and Fourteenth Amendments.
 
Please explain how it is a 'vice?' It is a medical procedure that is 14 times safer for a woman who is not prepared or want to be a mother.
Tolerated is the correct word. No none applauds it.

So please explain how it is a vice and how it impacts society negatively?
You are being ridiculous. Again, no one considers it a good thing. At best it is neutral
 
No one said anything about forcing them to have sex. Freedom of choice says you can consent to sex but not pregnancy. No one I know consents to cancer because they chose to smoke.

Hell yes they do. Cancer is a likely consequence of smoking. If you smoke, youre choosing to to accept that risk. That doesnt mean you can try to get rid of cancer, but it also doesnt absolve your moral responsibility in engaging in a behavior which led to your condition. Which is the implication in your OP, that women who cant have an abortion have no power.
 
Hell yes they do. Cancer is a likely consequence of smoking. If you smoke, youre choosing to to accept that risk. That doesnt mean you can try to get rid of cancer, but it also doesnt absolve your moral responsibility in engaging in a behavior which led to your condition. Which is the implication in your OP, that women who cant have an abortion have no power.

Wrong. I can consent to smoking, and not consent to getting cancer. Your logic is stupid. I consent to driving, not to an accident. I accept the risk of those things but retain the authority to not consent to them happening.

A libertarian cannot be against abortion, fyi. It is illogical and counter to your ideology.
 
Men who make these women kill their own children, yep.

Abortion does not let women become godless murdering whores.

Statistics show men are much much more likely to be godless murdering whores. What kind of restrictions should we then pass so men are not let to be the godless murdering whores they are? If you are so concerned about people (or just women?) being let to become godless murdering whores and all.
 
Abortion does not let women become godless murdering whores.

Statistics show men are much much more likely to be godless murdering whores. What kind of restrictions should we then pass so men are not let to be the godless murdering whores they are? If you are so concerned about people (or just women?) being let to become godless murdering whores and all.

Pro-birthers never concern themselves with the killing of born people or blame the men who impregnate all the women who look to abort.
 
Yes, that is -precisely- what is going on. The religious using religious belief bought and sold by the hacks at the catholic church, combined with the evangelical movement, created a subset of voters who are obsessed with the rights of unborn even when the bible says life begins at the first breath.

I have zero tolerance for any argument that the "pro-life" position is not religious. Religion is the GENESIS of this movement. It is the FACADE of this movement. It is the nature, and the demeanor. It is the mask and the face.

Atheists who espouse pro-birth ideological perspectives are so few as to be a statistical irrelevance.

Make no mistake. This movement is religious, through and through, and has been since the beginning.

You make it seem like this religious argument against abortion has only recently gained steam and traction. This is not the case. The RvW ruling has been mired in controversy since the very day of its liberal 7-2 ruling.

You would be mistaken its been around since well before Roe Vs Wade (which is unconstitutional, btw) Also - I agree it is a religious argument at its core. Or should I say - A MORAL argument at its core. God does not want us butchering unborn babies. Oh that's right, human babies are not human until they are born. Just a bundle of cells with no real purpose. LOL

There is a meme circulating among the left which makes the claim life doesn't begin until the first breath.

First, the pro-life argument isn’t that abortion is wrong “because my religion says so.” We can make a biblical argument. However, our primary argument isn’t biblical; it’s philosophical and scientific.

The pro-life argument is that it’s wrong to intentionally kill an innocent human being. Abortion intentionally kills an innocent human being. Therefore, abortion is wrong.
Notice no Bible verses were quoted. So, this meme doesn’t even come close to addressing the pro-life case. In fact, this meme ignores it completely.
Second, the Bible does not say life begins at “first breath.” Whoever created this meme needs to read their Bible again. It says Adam came to life at first breath (Gen. 2:7). Of course, this is a descriptive statement, not a prescriptive statement. The author of Genesis is not telling us when all human beings come to life. The Bible doesn’t teach that every man comes to life at first breath any more than it teaches that every woman comes from the rib of a man (Gen. 2:21–22).

If we want to know what the Bible teaches about when life begins, we are going to have to look elsewhere.
Third, the Bible elevates the status of unborn humans to valuable persons. For example, Psalm 139:13–16, Jeremiah 1:5, Job 31:15, and Psalm 22:10–11 all imply the unborn is a valuable human being. Never is the unborn treated as a “clump of cells.” Look these verses up and see for yourself.
Furthermore, Luke 1:41–43 clearly teaches that unborn babies—even in the first trimester—are valuable persons. It says,
And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the baby leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”

It’s hard to grasp the weight of this paragraph. The third trimester John (who was already “filled with the Holy Spirit” according to Luke 1:15) leaped for joy in the presence of the first trimester Jesus, who was even called “Lord” in His first trimester. How can a “clump of cells” be Lord?
The Bible clearly communicates that Jesus, John the Baptist, Jeremiah, David, and others were valuable persons—living human beings—before they ever took their first breath.
 
Pro-birthers never concern themselves with the killing of born people or blame the men who impregnate all the women who look to abort.

Pro-birthers are at best social conservatives, and at worst, reactionary, iron fisted authoritarians that want to control women. No more, no less.
 
You make it seem like this religious argument against abortion has only recently gained steam and traction. This is not the case. The RvW ruling has been mired in controversy since the very day of its liberal 7-2 ruling.

We don't have liberal and conservative rulings; we have SCOTUS rulings. The religious argument -began- the moment RvW was decided, with a massive upsurge in evangelist and catholic groups. The catholics are hardly able to dictate morals to anyone else.

Moreover, Roe V Wade has been upheld - in CONSERVATIVE RULINGS.

You would be mistaken its been around since well before Roe Vs Wade (which is unconstitutional, btw) Also - I agree it is a religious argument at its core. Or should I say - A MORAL argument at its core. God does not want us butchering unborn babies. Oh that's right, human babies are not human until they are born. Just a bundle of cells with no real purpose. LOL

Prove it's unconstitutional.

It's not a moral argument. This is one the RELIGIOUS are forcing on society. It has nothing to do with morals. It has to do with driving the poor and women into the awaiting arms of the ever cushy catholic priests and their ilk.

It's unconstitutional to dictate to others they must live in accordance with your religion.

There is a meme circulating among the left which makes the claim life doesn't begin until the first breath.

Genesis 2:7, He “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man became a living being”.

In a language you can understand. This isn't a meme, it's direct from your book. The bible also tells you to follow the law; that god has installed the leaders who have decided the law; and to trust him. You USURP god's power, that he gave all of us free will, when you do things like this.

First, the pro-life argument isn’t that abortion is wrong “because my religion says so.” We can make a biblical argument. However, our primary argument isn’t biblical; it’s philosophical and scientific.

No. It's biblical, and it's moral. It has nothing to do with scientific, and you can stuf the canard about philosophy in the dustbin; it's all about religion.

The pro-life argument is that it’s wrong to intentionally kill an innocent human being. Abortion intentionally kills an innocent human being. Therefore, abortion is wrong.
Notice no Bible verses were quoted. So, this meme doesn’t even come close to addressing the pro-life case. In fact, this meme ignores it completely.
Second, the Bible does not say life begins at “first breath.” Whoever created this meme needs to read their Bible again. It says Adam came to life at first breath (Gen. 2:7). Of course, this is a descriptive statement, not a prescriptive statement. The author of Genesis is not telling us when all human beings come to life. The Bible doesn’t teach that every man comes to life at first breath any more than it teaches that every woman comes from the rib of a man (Gen. 2:21–22).

I don't care what the bible says in any regard; I also don't care what the pro-life position is. It is authoritarian religious drivel.

If we want to know what the Bible teaches about when life begins, we are going to have to look elsewhere.
Third, the Bible elevates the status of unborn humans to valuable persons. “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”

And? All this does is prove my initial thesis; that the bible, like its followers, is nothing but a hypocritical batch of insane meanderings that has no bearing on the laws and freedom of this country.

It’s hard to grasp the weight of this paragraph. The third trimester John (who was already “filled with the Holy Spirit” according to Luke 1:15) leaped for joy in the presence of the first trimester Jesus, who was even called “Lord” in His first trimester. How can a “clump of cells” be Lord?
The Bible clearly communicates that Jesus, John the Baptist, Jeremiah, David, and others were valuable persons—living human beings—before they ever took their first breath.

And? Again, I couldn't care less what the bible says; the bible and its claims to me mean as much as, mother goose, for example. It's a batch of sordid nonsense and not relevant.

That you continue to cling to the religious, continue to cite the bible, proves to me the primary driver behind this grotesque fanatacism is after all religion, not science, not philosophy, nothing.

Bunch of ne'er do well busy bodies who cannot mind their own ****ing business.

Judge not, lest ye be judged yourself.
 
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