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Do you allow exceptions for rape or incest?

Lursa said:
Mine said He specifically has no name.

He told Charleton Heston.
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A god who shall remain nameless...so you could be worshiping any god and not even know it...the Bible calls Satan a god, ya know...
 
Elvira said:
A god who shall remain nameless...so you could be worshiping any god and not even know it...the Bible calls Satan a god, ya know...
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Oh, He's the one in the Bible, for sure. You just asked for His name. (pssssst! "Satan" has a name)
 
Lursa said:
Oh, He's the one in the Bible, for sure. You just asked for His name. (pssssst! "Satan" has a name)
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So does the God of the Bible...psssst His name is Jehovah and He wants us to call on Him by name...
 
Elvira said:
So does the God of the Bible...psssst His name is Jehovah and He wants us to call on Him by name...
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That's not what He told Charleton Heston.

He has also claimed, "I AM who I AM."
 
Lursa said:
That's not what He told Charleton Heston.

He has also claimed, "I AM who I AM."
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So that is what your faith is based on...a movie...I see...it all makes sense now...
 
Elvira said:
So that is what your faith is based on...a movie...I see...it all makes sense now...
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LOL I'm mostly just kidding around.

But He also did say He was nameless.
 
It would be rape or incest if raped.

That means it wasn't an act of free will. That means it was a violation of the person, which means that, along with a threat to the life of the mother, it would be considered self defense. It doesn't mean that you wouldn't be taking a life. You still would. But in that self preservation trumps all, it is understandable.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
It is almost universal among pro-life adherents that abortion is wrong because abortion is murder. There does seem to a division amongst pro-lifers when it comes to allowing exceptions in the case of rape or incest. Some make allowances while others do not.

My question is this: If abortion is murder and murder is always wrong, how can a pro-lifer reconcile allowances for rape or incest?
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The pro-life movement has never been overly concerned about cognitive dissonance. When you dispense with logic one need not reconcile anything one just shouts louder than the rational opposition, gives bigger wads of money to lobbyists and threatens to primary Congressmen/women. The success of those techniques indicates that the pro-life movement was about power and not life.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
Therefore what? You're not informed on the matter? What has that got to do the question of the OP?

Do you believe abortion is murder? If so, do you believe murder is acceptable in the case of rape or incest?
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Personally, my whole family believes abortion is in a way, murder. It is another human life. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

So when my second niece was raped seven years ago, and it turned out she was pregnant. There was a long and hard run discussion on what to do. Eventually the decision fell to her, after hearing everyone out. She made the choice to keep the child, and give her up for adoption after she was born.

The choice was a concerted effort in the end, and had she chose to abort the child I would not have held it against her.

This is a tough discussion. No matter the choice anyone makes, there is going to be someone who fervently disagrees.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
It is almost universal among pro-life adherents that abortion is wrong because abortion is murder. There does seem to a division amongst pro-lifers when it comes to allowing exceptions in the case of rape or incest. Some make allowances while others do not.

My question is this: If abortion is murder and murder is always wrong, how can a pro-lifer reconcile allowances for rape or incest?
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There is no logic that allows that exception if abortion in general is called murder. But SCOTUS manufactured the "Right to Choose" in Roe by conflating Choice with Privacy. However, I consider murder a strong term when referring to ALL abortions. In the first trimester, the fetus cannot exist outside the womb. It is not a person. Its termination is not homicide because homicide is defined as a killing of one human being by another. The pre-viable fetus is not (under the law) a human being.

Read Roe and observe the Trimester Rules. As the fetus approaches viability, Roe allows the State more control over the legality of abortion.
 
Oborosen said:
Personally, my whole family believes abortion is in a way, murder. It is another human life. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

So when my second niece was raped seven years ago, and it turned out she was pregnant. There was a long and hard run discussion on what to do. Eventually the decision fell to her, after hearing everyone out. She made the choice to keep the child, and give her up for adoption after she was born.

The choice was a concerted effort in the end, and had she chose to abort the child I would not have held it against her.

This is a tough discussion. No matter the choice anyone makes, there is going to be someone who fervently disagrees.
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You use a form of the word "choice" three times in sharing your niece's story. There is something poetically ironic in that.

Pro-lifers desire to take that word out of the discussion altogether.
 
ChezC3 said:
It would be rape or incest if raped.

That means it wasn't an act of free will. That means it was a violation of the person, which means that, along with a threat to the life of the mother, it would be considered self defense. It doesn't mean that you wouldn't be taking a life. You still would. But in that self preservation trumps all, it is understandable.
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Every abortion can be considered self defense, given the effects pregnancy has and can have on a woman's body.
 
Scrabaholic said:
Every abortion can be considered self defense, given the effects pregnancy has and can have on a woman's body.
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And that every single pregnancy is a risk to a woman's life that cannot be predicted...and not all prevented.

How is it possible that some other people believe they have the right to tell a woman she should take that risk? They weigh her life against the unborn's...and choose the unborn. What part of 'it cant be predicted' dont they understand?

They choose to ignore it...their attitude is, "well make her take a chance, the odds are in her favor" :doh Except when they're not...and it's not these strangers that will pay her consequences. Or grieve for her like her parents, other children, other family, husband, partner, friends.
 
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Scrabaholic said:
Every abortion can be considered self defense, given the effects pregnancy has and can have on a woman's body.
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No, that's just relativistic twaddle.,

I am not moving goal posts here, I just assumed that "immediate" danger to the life of the mother was understood. Not some variation of the "On a long enough time line, everyone's survival rate drops to zero" argument. Immediate, the pregnancy would cause an immediate danger.
 
ChezC3 said:
No, that's just relativistic twaddle.,

I am not moving goal posts here, I just assumed that "immediate" danger to the life of the mother was understood. Not some variation of the "On a long enough time line, everyone's survival rate drops to zero" argument. Immediate, the pregnancy would cause an immediate danger.
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Do let us know when YOUR body will suffer the ravages of pregnancy, k?
 
Stealers Wheel said:
You use a form of the word "choice" three times in sharing your niece's story. There is something poetically ironic in that.

Pro-lifers desire to take that word out of the discussion altogether.
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I haven't seen that. The ones I see talking about it, say that the child life must be recognized as a life that needs to be given a chance. In only the most extreme cases do I see people actually saying that the mother should be given no choice in the matter.

Then again, I can make the assumption that pro-choice people are pushing that the child has no right to live. Even though we know that they don't do as such, and only the most far removed from society could even suggest such a thing.

Like I said, it's a tough decision.
 
Quote Originally Posted by Stealers Wheel
You use a form of the word "choice" three times in sharing your niece's story. There is something poetically ironic in that.

Pro-lifers desire to take that word out of the discussion altogether.
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Oborosen said:
I haven't seen that. The ones I see talking about it, say that the child life must be recognized as a life that needs to be given a chance. In only the most extreme cases do I see people actually saying that the mother should be given no choice in the matter.
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You are sounding disingenuous. Have you not heard the pro-life people say their goal is to overturn Roe v Wade? That is the settled law that says a woman has the right in the U.S. to seek an abortion. It is their (your) goal to outlaw abortion. It is their goal to take away a woman's right to choose to terminate her pregnancy.

If you are not aware of this, then you are so woefully uninformed on the matter that we cannot continue this discussion. If not, then you are just trolling, and we are done.
 
Stealers Wheel said:
It is their (your) goal to outlaw abortion.
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I'm not against abortion. Calling it murder, is not saying that I'm against, or want outlaw it.

So who is sounding disingenuous now?

Oh that's right, you're just going to claim that I'm trolling and then run away from the conversation.
I'd like to say that's not typical. But I've been debating the left for a while now, and it's rather common.
 
Oborosen said:
I'm not against abortion. Calling it murder, is not saying that I'm against, or want outlaw it.

So who is sounding disingenuous now?

Oh that's right, you're just going to claim that I'm trolling and then run away from the conversation.
I'd like to say that's not typical. But I've been debating the left for a while now, and it's rather common.
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Oh, my bad. I foolishly thought you were against abortion when you called it murder. You can understand my error, though, can't you? Most people are against murder. Now that you have made it clear that you are not against murder, don't want to outlaw murder, we can of course move forward. You have to admit, that is a relatively rare position to take. I have never before met someone who would say "Abortion is murder and I'm not against abortion."
 
Stealers Wheel said:
Oh, my bad. I foolishly thought you were against abortion when you called it murder. You can understand my error, though, can't you? Most people are against murder. Now that you have made it clear that you are not against murder, don't want to outlaw murder, we can of course move forward. You have to admit, that is a relatively rare position to take. I have never before met someone who would say "Abortion is murder and I'm not against abortion."
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Make that two...
 
Stealers Wheel said:
Oh, my bad. I foolishly thought you were against abortion when you called it murder. You can understand my error, though, can't you? Most people are against murder. Now that you have made it clear that you are not against murder, don't want to outlaw murder, we can of course move forward. You have to admit, that is a relatively rare position to take. I have never before met someone who would say "Abortion is murder and I'm not against abortion."
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State executions are basically government sanctioned murder. Yet I'm completely fine with them.

Abortion is in fact, the killing of another life. A human life. There is no denying that it's a person in there, and just saying that it's a clump of cells is disingenuous.
But I know that abortion has a place in this world, for ill, or good. There are mothers that wont survive the child being born, and the child wont survive either.

It's a tough choice that must be made.
 
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