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How America’s Abortion obsession was sparked on a conference call

Jetboogieman

Somewhere in Babylon
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Interesting video from The Guardian today on how abortion became the firebrand political issue that it is



At the end of the day, it’s about power and money and engaging one of America’s biggest demographics in what they believe is a self righteous moral crusade because it gets them to vote religiously, but what is in the end inserting the government directly into the doctors office and is extremely detrimental to the health and well being of women and girls.
 
Interesting video from The Guardian today on how abortion became the firebrand political issue that it is



At the end of the day, it’s about power and money and engaging one of America’s biggest demographics in what they believe is a self righteous moral crusade because it gets them to vote religiously, but what is in the end inserting the government directly into the doctors office and is extremely detrimental to the health and well being of women and girls.


A woman (girl) should not have the right to kill an unborn child. End of story!!!
 
I'll bite.

Why not?

What has changed is ultrasound and similar technologies have allowed women to “see” the baby as a human fetus where as before “this and that” was done and a blob came out and that was it. It was less traumatic than witnessing the intentional destruction of the fetus.

We abort our domestic growth so we can import labor, I guess.
 
What has changed is ultrasound and similar technologies have allowed women to “see” the baby as a human fetus where as before “this and that” was done and a blob came out and that was it. It was less traumatic than witnessing the intentional destruction of the fetus.

In no way, shape, or form does that answer my question.
 
What has changed is ultrasound and similar technologies have allowed women to “see” the baby as a human fetus where as before “this and that” was done and a blob came out and that was it. It was less traumatic than witnessing the intentional destruction of the fetus.

Seeing the u/s does not change many minds.

Voluntarily viewing the ultrasound image may contribute to a small proportion of women with medium or low decision certainty deciding to continue the pregnancy; such viewing does not alter decisions of the large majority of women who are certain that abortion is the right decision.

Relationship Between Ultrasound Viewing and Proceeding to Ab... : Obstetrics & Gynecology
 
Didnt watch video...when was that call made? What year?

It's pretty obvious that the elevation of the issue to the forefront now is to polarize voters to hang onto Republican voters.

The pro-lifers believe (and want to cling to) so many inaccurate things about the procedure and the issue that it's simple to inflame and influence them.
 
I'll bite.

Why not?

The question is why should a woman have the right to kill my unborn child? RvW was a mistake and should have never been passed and eventually will get overturned.
The only problem with that is abortions will still happen, it's going to take education to reduce the number of abortions significantly.
 
The question is why should a woman have the right to kill my unborn child? RvW was a mistake and should have never been passed and eventually will get overturned.
The only problem with that is abortions will still happen, it's going to take education to reduce the number of abortions significantly.

Because it's in her body. Did you use birth control? If so, you had no plans and should have no expectations of a kid. Bearing a child isnt going to kill you, destroy your health, or your life. OTOH, it would be saddling you with a marriage or 18 yrs of child support...were you signing on for that when you had sex with her?

If you dont like her choice...did you know what her intentions would be IF she got pregnant? If not, why not? Again, you had no entitlement to her bearing your kid.

And RvW isnt going anywhere. Feel free to provide some legal foundation on which that overturn could happen. How? Otherwise, that's just wishful thinking on your part.
 
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Because it's in her body. Did you use birth control? If so, you had no plans and should have no expectations of a kid. Bearing a child isnt going to kill you, destroy your health, or your life. OTOH, it would be saddling you with a marriage or 18 yrs of child support...were you signing on for that when you had sex with her?

If you dont like her choice...did you know what her intentions would be IF she got pregnant? If not, why not? Again, you had no entitlement to her bearing your kid.

And RvW isnt going anywhere. Feel free to provide some legal foundation on which that overturn could happen. How? Otherwise, that's just wishful thinking on your part.

Because it's in her body.
Just because it's "her body" doesn't give her the right to murder.

Did you use birth control?
No and neither did she...

Bearing a child isn't going to kill you, destroy
your health, or your life.
What century do you live in, that excuse is getting old.


OTOH, it would be saddling you with a
marriage or 18 yrs of child support...were you signing on for that
when you had sex with her?
Yes


If you don't like her choice...did you know what her intentions would
be IF she got pregnant? If not, why not? Again, you had no entitlement
to her bearing your kid.
That's the problem right there, the woman bears no responsibility.
She agree to have sex, so new the possibility.

And RvW isn’t going anywhere. Feel free to provide some legal
foundation on which that overturn could happen. How? Otherwise,
that's just wishful thinking on your part.
Just like any other law gets overturned, it was a mistake and soon
will be corrected.
 
Because it's in her body.
Just because it's "her body" doesn't give her the right to murder.
Sure it does. The ignorance you display only further disqualifies your attempted argument.

Did you use birth control?
No and neither did she...
Brilliant. so what gives you the right to complain?

Bearing a child isn't going to kill you, destroy
your health, or your life.
How the **** would you know? How many did you bear?

If you don't like her choice...did you know what her intentions would
be IF she got pregnant? If not, why not? Again, you had no entitlement
to her bearing your kid.
That's the problem right there, the woman bears no responsibility.
As determined by you? :lamo:lamo:lamo

She agree to have sex, so new the possibility.
Did she agree to become a mother?

Just like any other law gets overturned, it was a mistake and soon
will be corrected.
More ignorant banter on your part. Roe is not law and abortion will still be legal even if Roe is overturned. Sure some backwards ****holes will outlaw it, but civilized places will still have it and there will be plenty of organizations that will help with transportation.
 
The question is why should a woman have the right to kill my unborn child? RvW was a mistake and should have never been passed and eventually will get overturned.
The only problem with that is abortions will still happen, it's going to take education to reduce the number of abortions significantly.

So your problem isn't that abortion is legal, your problem is that the women you have sex with have abortions.

Stop having sex.

Problem solved.
 
Forethought is everything...in birth control and in managing a simple quote function.

Because it's in her body.

Because it's in her body.
Just because it's "her body" doesn't give her the right to murder.

It's not murder. If it was, the women would be arrested and charged.

And she has every right to remove the unborn from her body...you disagree? Who says? Why? Where's your risk?

You cannot, and not Constitutionally, prevent her from it. Rights of her bodily sovereignty, self-determination, liberty, privacy, and life are all protected under the Constitution (there is no right to abortion...but this is why women are protected under the Constitution.

Did you use birth control?

No and neither did she...
So there are consequences for irresponsible actions. Her consequence was to have an abortion. You apparently face your own.

Bearing a child isnt going to kill you, destroy your health, or your life.

What century do you live in, that excuse is getting old.

Your continued disrespect for women shows...those are all facts and realities of pregnancy. No woman's body is the same after having a kid. Every single pregnancy is a risk to her life, that cannot be predicted or prevented in all cases. 86,700 women in the US die or suffer severe health consequences from it each year. So just because you dont care doesnt mean it's not true.

And who says that the self-determination and future of the unborn is more important than the woman's? You? Well, she gets to decide that for herself, she is the one that knows what is best for her life, her health, her ability to properly care for her family (most women who have abortions have at least 1 kid, and she may have siblings, elderly, disabled family as well), and her ability to fulfill her commitments and obligations to employer, community, society, etc.

You dont get to decide that for women.

OTOH, it would be saddling you with a marriage or 18 yrs of child support...were you signing on for that when you had sex with her?

Which is it? You asked her to marry you or you wanted to pay 18 yrs of child support? Please answer honestly. If either...did you know her feelings about that and abortion BEFORE you had sex with no bc?



If you dont like her choice...did you know what her intentions would be IF she got pregnant? If not, why not? Again, you had no entitlement to her bearing your kid.

That's the problem right there, the woman bears no responsibility.

Of course she does. And did. Having an abortion can be a very responsible decision:

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid you cant afford and expecting tax payers to take up that burden with public assistance.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid you arent emotionally prepared to have and may abuse or neglect.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid if you know you wont stop drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc that will damage the unborn.

--There's nothing responsible about remaining pregnant and dropping out of high school or college or missing work and not fulfilling your potential in society.

--There's nothing responsible about remaining pregnant/having a child and not being able to fulfill your other commitments and obligations to family, dependents, employer, church, community, society.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid and giving it up for adoption when there are already over 100,000 kids in America waiting to be adopted. It means one less waiting will find a home.​

She agree to have sex, so new the possibility.

And she also knew that she had the safer, legal option of abortion. Did you both discuss it before having sex?

And RvW isnt going anywhere. Feel free to provide some legal foundation on which that overturn could happen. How? Otherwise, that's just wishful thinking on your part.

Just like any other law gets overturned, it was a mistake and soon
will be corrected.

Either you know zero about the legal and Constitutional issues here or you are just using "wishful thinking" to hope that. Kinda like the same birth control you used. And you see how that worked out :roll:

Sorry, RvW wont get overturned. Some further options may get turned over to the states, but the Constitution protects women the way I described earlier.
 
it's going to take education to reduce the number of abortions significantly.

I'll give you applause :applaud for at least stating one thing that makes perfect sense, and is totally reasonable.

Education is in fact the answer to decreasing and preventing abortions.

(Obviously education failed you on a few levels in this area of life, so perhaps your insight there has value.)

Comprehensive and honest sex education in schools. Not the "abstinence only" idiocy, but real and honest sex education.

Education about contraception. How to find it, where to get it, how to pay for it, and how to use it effectively.

Outlawing abortion is the absolute WRONG tactic to take. Mountains of data exist to prove outlawing abortion doesn't stop abortion.

Preventing accidental pregnancy is how you not only reduce abortion to almost nothing, but it's also the most intelligent way to handle the issue without infringing on anyone's rights or privacy.
 
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Now that we have that out of the way.
Yes, the public education system has failed me. And I'm not a lawyer or expert on abortion.
Making abortion illegal is not the answer; abortions would still happen and be unsafe.
I still think abortion is killing an unborn child, but we can agree to disagree on that one.
I’d be interested in finding out what the medical field and/or science thinks about the subject. This seems to be an issue because researching it only brings up religious or personal views not necessarily the medical field or science opinion. Any advice on some credible article on the subject?
 
Now that we have that out of the way.
Yes, the public education system has failed me. And I'm not a lawyer or expert on abortion.
Making abortion illegal is not the answer; abortions would still happen and be unsafe.
I still think abortion is killing an unborn child, but we can agree to disagree on that one.
I’d be interested in finding out what the medical field and/or science thinks about the subject. This seems to be an issue because researching it only brings up religious or personal views not necessarily the medical field or science opinion. Any advice on some credible article on the subject?

How about Carl Sagan's perspective:

The abortion debate - Carl Sagan
 
Because it's in her body.
Just because it's "her body" doesn't give her the right to murder.

Abortion is not murder. Full stop.

Did you use birth control?
No and neither did she...

That still doesn't give you any ownership over her body. If the woman wants to terminate the pregnancy, then that's her decision.

Bearing a child isn't going to kill you, destroy
your health, or your life.

Bearing a child has killed many women and there's still a risk, so I don't know how you came to this conclusion.
 
Interesting video from The Guardian today on how abortion became the firebrand political issue that it is



At the end of the day, it’s about power and money and engaging one of America’s biggest demographics in what they believe is a self righteous moral crusade because it gets them to vote religiously, but what is in the end inserting the government directly into the doctors office and is extremely detrimental to the health and well being of women and girls.


Revealing video. Here's a quote from Wyrich after a successful anti-abortion turn out:

“The new political philosophy must be defined by us in moral terms, packaged in non-religious language, and propagated throughout the country by our new coalition. When political power is achieved, the moral majority will have the opportunity to re-create this great nation.”


Re-create the nation? Yes recreate the nation to suit evangelicals Here are mission statements from evangelical organizations:

Government is a gift from God for the common good. Good governance creates the conditions in which human beings fulfill their responsibilities as God’s image bearers and as stewards of God’s creation.” (Mission statement of the National Association of Evangelicals)

“Focus on the Family affirms the importance of social responsibility, supporting government institutions and protecting them against destructive social influences. God has ordained all social institutions, including the government, for the benefit of mankind and as a reflection of His divine nature.” (“Focus on the Family” position statement on Church and State)

“According to the Biblical Christian worldview, human government was instituted by God to protect our unalienable rights from our own selfish tendencies. ……. Government has its role, and it should allow other God-ordained institutions the freedom to perform their roles as well.” (Statement on the role of government from:All About GOD Ministries, Inc)

“Family Research Council's mission is to advance faith, family, and freedom in public policy and the culture from a biblical worldview.”

it is up to Christians to “restore once again to America a biblically based legal system that protects all human life from conception to natural death,” (Cultural Impact Team Resource Manuel)

“We believe that the Lordship of Christ requires us as disciples to seek to conform our actions, thoughts, and desires in obedience to Him.
We believe that God has endowed all humans with the natural, pre-political, and inalienable right of religious freedom to believe, pursue truth, and live within ordered liberty such that no political government may justly infringe upon it.” (from the mission statement of Alliance Defending Freedom)
 
Didnt watch video...when was that call made? What year?

It's pretty obvious that the elevation of the issue to the forefront now is to polarize voters to hang onto Republican voters.

The pro-lifers believe (and want to cling to) so many inaccurate things about the procedure and the issue that it's simple to inflame and influence them.

The video is very accurate. A recap of the history of the anti-abortion movement

The issue that initially angered conservative Christians was not abortion but the denial of tax exemption to Christian schools formed to avoid desegregation. The 1973 legalizaion of abortion was either embraced by conservative Christian Churchs as a reduction of government interference into private lives or ignored.

Jerry Falwell and Paul Weyrich, founder of the Heritage Foundation, had been searching without success for an issue around which to create a conservative power base. Conservative’s intransigent about de-segregation eventually ran afoul of the The Civil Rights Act and Green v. Connelly and the IRS revoked the tax exempt status of segregated private church schools. The fury of conservative Christians over this “interference” by the government was the energy Falwell and Weyrich sought to harness.

But they were savvy enough to recognize that the blatent racism of segregated school would never gain legitimate political momentum. They needed a more acceptable issue The rising number of abortions after the 1973 Roe v. Wade was causing conservative Christians and Catholics some alarm. Falwell and Weirich redirected the fury over government interference in Cristian schools to interference with religious belief and conservative Christians coalased around the anti-abortion “Pro-Life” message. But, the catalyst for their political activism was not, as often claimed, opposition to abortion. The real roots of Christian political power lie not in the defense of a fetus but in the defense of racial segregation.

After their early success in supporting a Pro-Life candidate in Iowa
Wyrich and Falwell were estatic. They had their issue. Wyrich wrote, “The new political philosophy must be defined by us in moral terms, packaged in non-religious language, and propagated throughout the country by our new coalition. When political power is achieved, the moral majority will have the opportunity to re-create this great nation.”

The rest is history.
 
A woman (girl) should not have the right to kill an unborn child. End of story!!!

If that's the way you feel then you should be for legalized abortion. If evangelicals manage to overturn legal abortion and ban it in conservative states abortion will go underground. Banning something does not banished it from existence as was demonstrated during Prohibition. There was more drinking during Prohibition than before and it introduced alcohol to a whole demographic that hadn't been drinkers before; young women and girls.

If abortion goes underground it is out of anyone's control. Abortions will be performed by anyone who sets up a clinic and they will be performed at any stage of the pregnancy right up to the 9th month. The horrors of Dr. Gosnell will be available in every town.

If you want to control and regulate abortion then it has to be legal. Illegal abortion means uncontrolled abortions
 
The video is very accurate. A recap of the history of the anti-abortion movement

The issue that initially angered conservative Christians was not abortion but the denial of tax exemption to Christian schools formed to avoid desegregation. The 1973 legalizaion of abortion was either embraced by conservative Christian Churchs as a reduction of government interference into private lives or ignored.

Jerry Falwell and Paul Weyrich, founder of the Heritage Foundation, had been searching without success for an issue around which to create a conservative power base. Conservative’s intransigent about de-segregation eventually ran afoul of the The Civil Rights Act and Green v. Connelly and the IRS revoked the tax exempt status of segregated private church schools. The fury of conservative Christians over this “interference” by the government was the energy Falwell and Weyrich sought to harness.

But they were savvy enough to recognize that the blatent racism of segregated school would never gain legitimate political momentum. They needed a more acceptable issue The rising number of abortions after the 1973 Roe v. Wade was causing conservative Christians and Catholics some alarm. Falwell and Weirich redirected the fury over government interference in Cristian schools to interference with religious belief and conservative Christians coalased around the anti-abortion “Pro-Life” message. But, the catalyst for their political activism was not, as often claimed, opposition to abortion. The real roots of Christian political power lie not in the defense of a fetus but in the defense of racial segregation.

After their early success in supporting a Pro-Life candidate in Iowa
Wyrich and Falwell were estatic. They had their issue. Wyrich wrote, “The new political philosophy must be defined by us in moral terms, packaged in non-religious language, and propagated throughout the country by our new coalition. When political power is achieved, the moral majority will have the opportunity to re-create this great nation.”

The rest is history.

Thanks for the summary. Just more non-Christian behavior by so-called Christians that stain and cause shame to my religion of peace, compassion, and brotherly love in their own self-interest, hate & intolerance.
 
If that's the way you feel then you should be for legalized abortion. If evangelicals manage to overturn legal abortion and ban it in conservative states abortion will go underground. Banning something does banished it from existence as was pointed out with Prohibition. There was more drinking after Prohibition than before and it introduced alcohol to a whole demographic that hadn't been drinkers before young women and girls.

If abortion goes underground it is out of anyone's control. Abortions will be performed by anyone who sets up a clinic and they will be performed at any stage of the pregnancy right up to the 9th month. The horrors of Dr. Gosnell will be available in every town.

If you want to control abortion then it has to be legal. Illegal abortion means uncontrolled abortions

Well I think they'll just go to non-conservative states.

But yeah, everybody knows that banning abortion wont stop abortions, it would only cause suffering and sometimes death to the women that have to resort to it. But that's ok with many pro-lifers. Because for them, it's all about punishing the women, not saving the unborn. Those women? They think 'they deserved it." And they've written it here before.
 
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