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New Abortion Laws Too Extreme For Most Americans

year2late said:
I am curious, what do you call indiscriminate?

Example

A woman uses birth control, ends up pregnant.

She has no insurance and will be faced with emergency Medicaid in an area where she will have to spend long periods of time on multiple bus trips to get to a scheduled appointment at the county clinic (there will be many). Each time she will need to miss work because she cannot commit to what time she will be able to get to work that day.

She is part of the working poor, so she is housing insecure....missing a paycheck could mean potential eviction. Missing one day of work could mean her phone or electricity gets turned off.

Because she has emergency medicaid and less than optimal access to medical care she is more likely to have bad consequences to be found later. One of my severe complications was found AFTER it had already affected my kidneys. I felt no symptoms. I felt fine. After I received initial treatment I was told to take off work for the rest of my pregnancy (nearly 3 months). How many women who are working poor would go back to work and pray for the best...because....well....rent? My OBGYN saw a very subtle sign and investigated further. How many doctors at a overburdoned understaffed county clinic have that time??

So if she decides she is too under resourced to safely continue the pregnancy, do you call an early abortion indiscriminate - if so, why?
Click to expand...

I call it homicide due to irresponsibility. If you're going to take the chance of getting pregnant knowing you can't afford it, deal with the consequences in a decent manner.
 
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Lursa said:
I have never seen a list that described the reasons why women have abortions that had 'indiscriminate' reasons on it. Feel free to provide such a list.

And abortion kills all unborn but none feel pain, by laws that regulate the procedure...so your 'harm' comment indicates a lack of a) honesty, b) education on the topic, or c) both.
Click to expand...

I only repeated what the article referenced.
 
WCH said:
I call it homicide due to irresponsibility. If you're going to take the chance of getting pregnant knowing you can't afford it, deal with the consequences in a decent manner.
Click to expand...

It has been posted many times that most couples in America do use contraception. After all these millenia, with better contraception and medical care...do you really think that people are going to start having less sex? Yes or no? Is that a rational belief? Yes or no?

And then perhaps you can please explain why you condemn these normal, responsible American women for choosing a responsible option if an accident does occur? Please, explain?

Because:

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid you cant afford and expecting tax payers to take up that burden with public assistance.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid you arent emotionally prepared to have and may abuse or neglect.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid if you know you wont stop drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc that will damage the unborn.

--There's nothing responsible about remaining pregnant and dropping out of high school or college or missing work and not fulfilling your potential in society.

--There's nothing responsible about remaining pregnant/having a child and not being able to fulfill your other commitments and obligations to family, dependents, employer, church, community, society.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid and giving it up for adoption when there are already over 100,000 kids in America waiting to be adopted. It means one less waiting will find a home.​
 
minnie616 said:
Actually , the 2004 AGI survey that posts that women seek abortions
12 percent of the time because the mother has health problems and
13percent of the time possible fetal health problems.

From the 2004 table of the following study:

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States
Click to expand...


WCH said:
apples and oranges don't you think?
Click to expand...

I disagree . Health problems are very serious ( my kidneys were damaged and my life was threatened during my first pregnancy ) do not fall under indiscriminate abortions . You said 90 percent of abortions are indiscriminate and I proved you were wrong.


WCH said:
It doesn't allow for indiscriminate abortion or harming the fetus.... 90+ percent of abortions are just that.
Click to expand...
 
WCH said:
I call it homicide due to irresponsibility. If you're going to take the chance of getting pregnant knowing you can't afford it, deal with the consequences in a decent manner.
Click to expand...

Abortion is doing exactly that.
 
WCH said:
I would bet less than 33% approved RvW when it was enacted.
Click to expand...

I bet you are incorrect. Just over 50% of all Americans are, or were, women. I seriously doubt you're going to find a maximum of 33% of those women, if they are honest, would tell you they have any desire whatsoever to have their bodily autonomy legally stripped from by no choice of their own. My money says it's at least twice that many, very likely more.
 
Obscurity said:
New abortion laws are too extreme for most Americans, poll shows | PBS NewsHour

And as expected, the republicans and their paleoconservative agenda and libertarian "political economy" application of economics to every social question are, yet again, out of touch with the majority of americans. 2020 is shaping up to be a big year, and the GOP already has a massive hurdle looming - healthcare - and they seem hell bent on making abortion another massive hurdle to their attempts at keeping control of the senate and the presidency.



33% is absolutely abysmal. It's also a rebuke to a platform based on evangelical and catholic lies.

A really interesting quote:



David Pakman broke this down perfectly, as the mainstreaming of far right idiocy has changed the national conversation, which is a brilliant tactic; force the MSM to discuss the most hideous and abhorrent of your policies, and then the more obscure of their policies, no less hideous or insidious, become pallatable.



So let's hear it, conservatives. How can you continue to be on the wrong side of the american public, and how can you continue to support failing policies, and how can you excuse the vapid, inane and disgusting manner in which the right wing has force fed the nation their heinous ideas and insisted upon their acceptance, merely via apathetic fiat?
Click to expand...


Abortion is not a conservative versus liberal issue.
 
minnie616 said:
I disagree . Health problems are very serious ( my kidneys were damaged and my life was threatened during my first pregnancy ) do not fall under indiscriminate abortions . You said 90 percent of abortions are indiscriminate and I proved you were wrong.
Click to expand...

Not discussing your condition. Should all those innocents be destroyed because of the relatively few unhealthy mothers?

I would focus my attention on exceptions rather than broad brushing abortion on demand.
 
Logician Man said:
I bet you are incorrect. Just over 50% of all Americans are, or were, women. I seriously doubt you're going to find a maximum of 33% of those women, if they are honest, would tell you they have any desire whatsoever to have their bodily autonomy legally stripped from by no choice of their own. My money says it's at least twice that many, very likely more.
Click to expand...

I bet no one knows for sure. It's become a political tool.

Roe v. Wade Polling -- Public Support Not as Strong as Claimed | National Review
 
WCH said:
Not discussing your condition. Should all those innocents be destroyed because of the relatively few unhealthy mothers?

I would focus my attention on exceptions rather than broad brushing abortion on demand.
Click to expand...

Most women who choose abortion are poor/working poor with no insurance or Medicaid. On Medicaid, she will have to go to a clinic that will accept Medical patients. She may be required to go to a clinic that is in her county, but not even her city. The county clinic may get you long waits even with appointments. So between a bus trip or two each way and a long clinic wait (longer if blood draws and other tests,etc) a woman may have to miss alot of shifts. Many of these women are frequently not a paycheck away from poverty and homelessness...they are a shift away. I would say giving these COMMON situations , that pregnancy is more of a risk than you think it is. My complications were caught because I had a regular OBGYN who had the time and experience to see a subtle sign - I felt fine - and my kidneys were already under attack.

The pragmatic solution has nothing to do with wasting the SCOTUS time with these nonstop challenges to RvW....it is improving the safety, accessibility, and availability of long term contraception. Long term male contraception would be nice as well. The other pragmatic solution would be to turn an unwanted pregnancy into a wanted one. This would involve improving medical care access not just for pregnancy, housing (etc)security, job security, etc.
 
WCH said:
Not discussing your condition. Should all those innocents be destroyed because of the relatively few unhealthy mothers?

I would focus my attention on exceptions rather than broad brushing abortion on demand.
Click to expand...

Any pregnancy can take a turn at a moments notice and put the woman’s health and even her life at risk, at a point where an abortion once the symptoms are there will be too late to prevent a death of the woman or lifelong major irreparable disability.

That’s why no woman should be forced to take the risk if she wants an early elective abortion it should be her choice not to risk the pregnancy. Some women can sence there is something wrong ahead of time.


Life threatening complications aren't rare up to 8 percent of all pregnancies affected by pre- eclampsia or one of it's variants including HELLP syndrome.

We never know when a pregnancy might take a turn and become life threatening to someone we love.

Another 1 to 2.5 percent of pregnancies are ectopic pregnancies which are also life threatening.

So about 1 out 10 pregnancies can be life threatening just from 2 of the many types of life threatening complications.... eclampsia variants and ectopic pregnancies.

My daughter had HELLP syndrome with her pregnancy and she was very close to death when they performed the emergency
C section.

She went to the ER a few weeks before her due date because she was getting a horrible pain in her back just below her ribs which was caused because her liver was being damaged from the HELLP syndrome.

Usually there is pain the upper right part of the abdomen but her pain was in the back because her liver was swelling and shutting down.
They were worried her liver might fail.


Her OB/GYN was shocked when her test results came back showing she had HELLP syndrome. She had just seen him a couple days before and everything with the pregnancy appeared fine then.

My daughter was one the up to 8 percent of women in the US who every year developes 'preeclampsia, eclampsia, or a related condition such as HELLP syndrome." Thankfully she was not one of the roughly 300 US women who do die from the syndrome every year but she was one of the roughly 75,000 women every year who are counted as near misses.

From the following article:


Every year in the U.S., up to 8 percent, or 300,000, of pregnant or postpartum women develop preeclampsia, eclampsia, or a related condition such as HELLP syndrome.

Roughly 300 women die, and another 75,000 women experience “near misses”— severe complications and injury such as organ failure, massive blood loss, permanent disability, and premature birth or death of their babies.
Usually, the disease resolves with the birth of the baby and placenta. But, it can occur postpartum—indeed, most maternal deaths occur after delivery.
Click to expand...

Beyond Downton Abbey: Preeclampsia Maternal Deaths Continue Today


A little more about HELLP Syndrome:


HELLP syndrome is a life-threatening pregnancy complication usually considered to be a variant of preeclampsia. Both conditions usually occur during the later stages of pregnancy, or sometimes after childbirth.

HELLP syndrome was named by Dr. Louis Weinstein in 1982 after its characteristics:

H (hemolysis, which is the breaking down of red blood cells)
EL (elevated liver enzymes)
LP (low platelet count)

HELLP syndrome can be difficult to diagnose, especially when high blood pressure and protein in the urine aren't present. Its symptoms are sometimes mistaken for gastritis, flu, acute hepatitis, gall bladder disease, or other conditions.

The global mortality rate of HELLP syndrome has been reported to be as high as 25%.
Click to expand...


HELLP Syndrome: Preeclampsia Foundation



Now many women like myself and my daughter continue our pregnancies because we wish to become parents.

But I cannot support a law or a country that does not allow elective abortions and thus forces women to continue a pregnancy that may very well put her long term health or life at risk.

On the other side of the coin I could not support a law or a country that would force a women to have an abortion against her will even if her unborn were so malformed that if it did survive birth it would cost taxpayers millions of dollars in medical care.

Each woman should have the legal option to choose whether or not she wishes to continue her pregnancy.
 
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year2late said:
Most women who choose abortion are poor/working poor with no insurance or Medicaid. On Medicaid, she will have to go to a clinic that will accept Medical patients. She may be required to go to a clinic that is in her county, but not even her city. The county clinic may get you long waits even with appointments. So between a bus trip or two each way and a long clinic wait (longer if blood draws and other tests,etc) a woman may have to miss alot of shifts. Many of these women are frequently not a paycheck away from poverty and homelessness...they are a shift away. I would say giving these COMMON situations , that pregnancy is more of a risk than you think it is. My complications were caught because I had a regular OBGYN who had the time and experience to see a subtle sign - I felt fine - and my kidneys were already under attack.

The pragmatic solution has nothing to do with wasting the SCOTUS time with these nonstop challenges to RvW....it is improving the safety, accessibility, and availability of long term contraception. Long term male contraception would be nice as well. The other pragmatic solution would be to turn an unwanted pregnancy into a wanted one. This would involve improving medical care access not just for pregnancy, housing (etc)security, job security, etc.
Click to expand...

Yes there are many reasons to have an abortion but, one thing common to nearly all those excuses....having sex out of wedlock [85% of those having an abortion are unwed]

If ones life is not what they want [while others don't seem to care] don't compound the problems by taking a chance on getting pregnant. There are other ways to satisfy ones sexual appetite other than intercourse.
 
minnie616 said:
Any pregnancy can take a turn at a moments notice and put the woman’s health and even her life at risk, at a point where an abortion once the symptoms are there will be too late to prevent a death of the woman or lifelong major irreparable disability.

That’s why no woman should be forced to take the risk if she wants an early elective abortion it should be her choice not to risk the pregnancy. Some women can sence there is something wrong ahead of time.


Life threatening complications aren't rare up to 8 percent of all pregnancies affected by pre- eclampsia or one of it's variants including HELLP syndrome.

We never know when a pregnancy might take a turn and become life threatening to someone we love.

Another 1 to 2.5 percent of pregnancies are ectopic pregnancies which are also life threatening.

So about 1 out 10 pregnancies can be life threatening just from 2 of the many types of life threatening complications.... eclampsia variants and ectopic pregnancies.

My daughter had HELLP syndrome with her pregnancy and she was very close to death when they performed the emergency
C section.

She went to the ER a few weeks before her due date because she was getting a horrible pain in her back just below her ribs which was caused because her liver was being damaged from the HELLP syndrome.

Usually there is pain the upper right part of the abdomen but her pain was in the back because her liver was swelling and shutting down.
They were worried her liver might fail.


Her OB/GYN was shocked when her test results came back showing she had HELLP syndrome. She had just seen him a couple days before and everything with the pregnancy appeared fine then.

My daughter was one the up to 8 percent of women in the US who every year developes 'preeclampsia, eclampsia, or a related condition such as HELLP syndrome." Thankfully she was not one of the roughly 300 US women who do die from the syndrome every year but she was one of the roughly 75,000 women every year who are counted as near misses.

From the following article:



Beyond Downton Abbey: Preeclampsia Maternal Deaths Continue Today


A little more about HELLP Syndrome:




HELLP Syndrome: Preeclampsia Foundation



Now many women like myself and my daughter continue our pregnancies because we wish to become parents.

But I cannot support a law or a country that does not allow elective abortions and thus forces women to continue a pregnancy that may very well put her long term health or life at risk.

On the other side of the coin I could not support a law or a country that would force a women to have an abortion against her will even if her unborn were so malformed that if it did survive birth it would cost taxpayers millions of dollars in medical care.

Each woman should have the legal option to choose whether or not she wishes to continue her pregnancy.
Click to expand...

Again: I would focus my attention on exceptions rather than broad brushing acceptance of abortion on demand.

By far most abortions are for convenience.
 
WCH said:
Be my guest.
Click to expand...

No need. I know your number is way off. You clearly are oblivious as to the value women put on their bodily autonomy, and their disdain for others, especially males, attempting to dictate what they do with their bodily autonomy.
 
Logician Man said:
No need. I know your number is way off. You clearly are oblivious as to the value women put on their bodily autonomy, and their disdain for others, especially males, attempting to dictate what they do with their bodily autonomy.
Click to expand...

And what, pray tell, is your expertise in the matter?
 
Logician Man said:
listening to and observing posts by women.. just the basics.
Click to expand...
So no actual real life women opinions? I think you would be surprised what they really think when you get past the politics.
As I said before, abortion is now a political tool susceptible to the same rhetoric and distortion of any other issue.
 
WCH said:
Again: I would focus my attention on exceptions rather than broad brushing acceptance of abortion on demand.

By far most abortions are for convenience.
Click to expand...


When I read about all the reasons that are listed as to why a woman chooses to have an abortion ...
convenience NEVER enters my mind.

I have to laugh when pro lifers say most abortions are performed for " convenience ".

If a woman does not have the finances to continue a pregnancy let alone raise a child.. Are we supposed to assume that paying for the pregnancy let alone the cost of raising an child is
just an " inconvenience" ?

If she does not want to be a single parent...we should just assume that being a single parent is merely a little
" inconvenience" ?

If her born children are already almost grown and she accidentally became pregnant during the change of life are we supposed to assume that experiencing a pregnancy that late in life is merely an " inconvenience "?

If a woman already has a few children and is already struggling just to feed the children she already has ...
should we assume that having another child at that point in her life would just be an " inconvenience?

I think NOT.

To me those reasons are not reasons of " convenience.".
 
minnie616 said:
When I read about all the reasons that are listed as to why a woman chooses to have an abortion ...
convenience NEVER enters my mind.

I have to laugh when pro lifers say most abortions are performed for " convenience ".

If a woman does not have the finances to continue a pregnancy let alone raise a child.. Are we supposed to assume that paying for the pregnancy let alone the cost of raising an child is
just an " inconvenience" ?

If she does not want to be a single parent...we should just assume that being a single parent is merely a little
" inconvenience" ?

If her born children are already almost grown and she accidentally became pregnant during the change of life are we supposed to assume that experiencing a pregnancy that late in life is merely an " inconvenience "?

If a woman already has a few children and is already struggling just to feed the children she already has ...
should we assume that having another child at that point in her life would just be an " inconvenience?

I think NOT.

To me those reasons are not reasons of " convenience.".
Click to expand...

Everything in life that's not easy IS an inconvenience. As a matter of fact, life is full of them.

Being personally responsible goes a long way in keeping those inconveniences to a minimum. But, it ain't easy....you have to work for it.
 
WCH said:
So no actual real life women opinions? I think you would be surprised what they really think when you get past the politics.
As I said before, abortion is now a political tool susceptible to the same rhetoric and distortion of any other issue.
Click to expand...

I am a real live woman and I have an opinion.

The only reason I have my kidneys and possibly my life is because I had a really good OBGYN who knew me and had the time to really check me out each time. I was not in a busy overburdoned impersonal county clinic that out of necessity has to rush patients through. I had the personal, social, and the ability to go into major debt to support 6 months I was off due to medical reasons associated with pregnancy.
I had absolutely no clue when I went to the appointment that day how sick I was becoming.

That incident ingrained into me how dangerous pregnancy can be and how important it is for the pregnant woman to be able to consider her resources along with her beliefs when making decisions about her pregnancy.

I would love to see the most effective birth control to be financially accessible to all that want it. The cost of long term contraception (IUD for example) can cost twice the amount of an abortion. The people who are most at risk for abortion following unwanted pregnancy - too rich for medicaid too poor for insurance or self pay cannot afford it. I would love for a long term male contraception to be available as well.
I get that you want people to abstain until they are married and are ready to have a family....noted. But I live in the real world where that just is not going to happen.
 
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