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If you're a pro lifer, watch this video

M

Masterhawk

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This video poses a very interesting question for those who believe that abortion is immoral because the fetus is a living creature.



At least start at 8:37
 
Masterhawk said:
This video poses a very interesting question for those who believe that abortion is immoral because the fetus is a living creature.



At least start at 8:37
Click to expand...


Unless we are talking about rape, I don't see how this is a valid analogy.

Also, bodily autonomy only seems to be brought up when speaking about abortion. Many of the same people that will bring up the bodily autonomy argument will balk at the idea of legalizing drugs and/or prostitution.
 
Nap said:
Unless we are talking about rape, I don't see how this is a valid analogy.

Also, bodily autonomy only seems to be brought up when speaking about abortion. Many of the same people that will bring up the bodily autonomy argument will balk at the idea of legalizing drugs and/or prostitution.
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First of all I did not watch the video as I am pro choice.

But i read your reply:

You are confusing bodily autonomy with bodily integrity.

They are very similar but:

In one case, (autonomy) you have the right to not allow OTHERS to decide how to use your body.

In the other, ( integrity ) it's about having the right to do as YOU choose with your body.
 
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I'm surprised a liberal scientist hasn't figured out a way to run our cars on dead fetuses.Imagine a pregnant woman running out of gas.Honey don't call AAA.There's a coat hanger in the trunk.
 
gulfman said:
I'm surprised a liberal scientist hasn't figured out a way to run our cars on dead fetuses.Imagine a pregnant woman running out of gas.Honey don't call AAA.There's a coat hanger in the trunk.
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Do you try very hard to come up with such imbecilic drivel or it comes naturally to you?
 
prometeus said:
Do you try very hard to come up with such imbecilic drivel or it comes naturally to you?
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I think he tries just as hard as you do not to continually be nasty to others and insult their intelligence, their education, and their reading comprehension. So no, not much.
 
nota bene said:
I think he tries just as hard as you do not to continually be nasty to others and insult their intelligence, their education, and their reading comprehension. So no, not much.
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I am curious, do you think this nastiness is one sided?

I have been accused of supporting murder....I have been accused of being an abortion recipient complete with a picture of what my child would have looked like if I did not kill him (he is alive and well and 25). I have been accused of hating God. I have been accused of supporting murdering children.

I think the defensiveness leads to offensiveness. And it is rampant on this forum.

My personal favorite was being accused of killing my son.....when the reality is that when faced with abortion I risked my life and my kidneys to maintain my pregnancy. I mean if you are going to accuse someone of killing....at least have some evidence.

Hell, when I ask that correct terminology be used (on both sides) I get repeatedly accused of dehumanizing a fetus.

I think both sides frequently need to take a chill pill. Some more than others.

And frankly to compare Gulfman with Prometheus? Have you looked through Gulfman's posts and actually compared?
 
minnie616 said:
First of all I did not watch the video as I am pro choice.

But i read your reply:

You are confusing bodily autonomy with bodily integrity.

They are very similar but:

In one case, (autonomy) you have the right to not allow OTHERS to decide how to use your body.

In the other, ( integrity ) it's about having the right to do as YOU choose with your body.
Click to expand...

That is a distinction without a difference. You are simply avoiding the fact that if you are truly arguing that a person has the right to bodily autonomy then prostitution and drugs should be legal.
 
Nap said:
That is a distinction without a difference. You are simply avoiding the fact that if you are truly arguing that a person has the right to bodily autonomy then prostitution and drugs should be legal.
Click to expand...

I disagree.
There is a big distinction as any women who had ever been raped will tell you ...there is a big difference between forced rape and legal prostitution.

By the way , more often than not prostitution is also forced onto the woman.
 
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prometeus said:
I bet you also think that he succeeds.

The crap he posts is insulting to anyone with a modicum of intellect and integrity. I am not so surprised that you do not find it offensive.
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That's just what I mean. I guess you can't help yourself.
 
As others have pointed out, this analogy only has prima facie relevance when the pregnancy is the result of rape.

Additionally:


  • there is no blood (familial) relationship between the men in the analogy
  • expectant mothers are not kept chained to gurneys in abandoned basements
  • life expectancy is significantly shortened by kidney transplants; not the case with pregnancy
  • the operation as depicted would carry a significant risk of death; not the case with pregnancy
  • expectant mothers aren't brutally attacked by the state; the state is not a single unhinged man operating independently and without oversight
  • the chained man isn't the only man who can assist the dying man; this circumstance doesn't apply to pregnancy
  • a kidney transplant isn't the only treatment option for the dying man; this circumstance doesn't apply to pregnancy


A fairer analogy for pregnancy via rape would be if the state mandated that everyone with extremely rare Z-type blood must regularly donate blood for sake of other persons with Z-type blood who couldn't receive it from anyone else. The law would except only Z-type blood holders with a significant risk of dying as a result of the donations.

Get that into a vignette and we'll discuss it.
 
Masterhawk said:
This video poses a very interesting question for those who believe that abortion is immoral because the fetus is a living creature.
...
Click to expand...




Bodily autonomy means a person has control over who or what uses their body, for what, and for how long.

Its why you can't be forced to donate blood, tissue, or organs. Even if you are dead.
 
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minnie616 said:
I disagree.
There is a big distinction as any women who had ever been raped will tell you ...there is a big difference between forced rape and legal prostitution.

By the way , more often than not prostitution is also forced onto the woman.
Click to expand...

And of course that should be completely illegal.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around why prostitution is illegal and yet porn is perfectly fine. Seems rather strange that one can have sex for money, but only if there is a camera present. Many of our laws make absolutely no sense and in many cases (Drug war, prostitution, etc) they do more harm to society and to those they presumably want to help.
 
Nap said:
And of course that should be completely illegal.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around why prostitution is illegal and yet porn is perfectly fine. Seems rather strange that one can have sex for money, but only if there is a camera present. Many of our laws make absolutely no sense and in many cases (Drug war, prostitution, etc) they do more harm to society and to those they presumably want to help.
Click to expand...

In my country, it is not illegal to accept money for sex.
 
Nap said:
Many of the same people that will bring up the bodily autonomy argument will balk at the idea of legalizing drugs and/or prostitution.
Click to expand...
Because legalized hard drugs and prostitution end up removing bodily autonomy.
 
gulfman said:
I'm surprised a liberal scientist hasn't figured out a way to run our cars on dead fetuses.Imagine a pregnant woman running out of gas.Honey don't call AAA.There's a coat hanger in the trunk.
Click to expand...

I'm surprised that any scientists AREN'T liberal. Leave the emotional hysteria to the conservatives, I say. While the monkeys squawk their disapproval, let the facts lead we, the evolved, to a rational progress where women OBVIOUSLY have a right to their own bodies.

The only reason coat hangers would be needed is if religious whackadoodles got control of the government, which is a hell of a lot more prescient concern than a car that runs on fetuses. I would hope, first, for a conservative that runs on reality if I want to be immediately disappointed.
 
Nap said:
That is a distinction without a difference. You are simply avoiding the fact that if you are truly arguing that a person has the right to bodily autonomy then prostitution and drugs should be legal.
Click to expand...
Prostitution and drug abuse are commercial activities which harm society. Abortion is non-commercial and benefits society
 
Nap said:
And of course that should be completely illegal.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around why prostitution is illegal and yet porn is perfectly fine. Seems rather strange that one can have sex for money, but only if there is a camera present. Many of our laws make absolutely no sense and in many cases (Drug war, prostitution, etc) they do more harm to society and to those they presumably want to help.
Click to expand...
In porn, the performers are not being paid to provide sexual pleasure to the people who pay them. They are paid to produce entertainment for others
 
sangha said:
In porn, the performers are not being paid to provide sexual pleasure to the people who pay them. They are paid to produce entertainment for others
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They are still being paid to have sex. I'm not sure why one is considered to be acceptable and not the other.
 
Nap said:
They are still being paid to have sex. I'm not sure why one is considered to be acceptable and not the other.
Click to expand...

Power dynamics.
 
sangha said:
Prostitution and drug abuse are commercial activities which harm society. Abortion is non-commercial and benefits society
Click to expand...

Prohibition of drugs and prostitution does far more harm to society than if either were legal.
 
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