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Who is an avid anti-abortionist......

weaver2 said:
Most women seeking an abortion at clinics are modest or low income and are getting an abortion because they know they and their family do not have the financial resources to raise another child. They know that a child or another child will put the family in an insecure financial position, creating emotional stresses and making the family even less stable.

Conservative support for children as infants and through high school in low or modest income families is given grudgingly or not at all. Among advanced countries the US has one of the lowest rates of of aid to families with limited resources and support of public education.

Given conservative lack of support and fairly callous attitude toward the poor, creating a larger pool of poor children and families by banning on abortion is illogical and can only be explained if the anti-abortion issue is not really about saving innocent little babies and is about something else entirely. Discussing that "something else" requires honesty and common sense; neither of which the anti-abortion movement seems capable of.

Some arguments are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.' The anti-abortion argument is not one of them. Abortion cannot be regulated sensibly until conservatives are honest about their anti-abortion goal.
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I would like to give additional perspective to the bolded. I agree that they are acknowledging the lack of resources to raise a (or another child) but even more, I think they are acknowledging the lack of personal/social/medical resources to remain pregnant. Having to give up shifts due to appointments, medical needs, and restrictions due to pregnancy can be lead to shelter life or homelessness. Most women who chose abortion already are trying to raise a child at home. Being pregnant and under resourced can put her born child at risk.
 
OrphanSlug said:
Not my intention but I understand your point.

My point is the conversation becomes a muddy mess when thinking about protections for all life, across all of life including after being born, regardless of the choices one makes with their life. The social and economic implications with respect to ideological and political positions on the onus of the individual against the onus of the community are all relevant to bring into the discussion.
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And when looked at more closely, it's generally not even true. Few pro-lifers are against abortion 100% unless it's 'proven it's going to kill the mother,' the way it was until recently in Ireland.

Here's how it usually goes:

Interestingly enough...I've discovered a pretty clear dividing line for "acceptable" for most pro-life people. It's viewed the same very very frequently.

If it's the woman's 'fault' she got pregnant (she enjoyed sex, her birth control failed, etc.) then she should not be allowed to have an abortion.

If it wasnt her fault (rape, severe medical issues, incest as a minor) then she should be allowed to have an abortion.

So what we can see here is that:

--obviously most pro-life people do not view the unborn as equal... If the unborn was truly equal, you could not terminate it's life in cases of rape or incest or even the mother's life to some extent. (THere are a few pro-life people that do believe you cannot terminate the unborn in these circumstances and at least they are consistent.)

-- most pro-life people care more about judging and punishing a woman than they care for that 'innocent life'. (yeah, considering it punishment because the unborn is frequently referred to as a 'consequence')

So IMO the dividing line re: abortion for pro-life supporters has nothing to do with the unborn, it's all about the woman and how they judge her culpability in the pregnancy.​

So obviously, the unborn's life is not always valued the same as born people's...it's all in relation to how they judge the woman.
 
year2late said:
Ring ring.

I was very healthy. I ended up having several life threatening complications.It was because I had decent financial resources, excellent insurance and medical care, and good social resources. If those resources were not in place...I would either be dead or on dialysis. My fetus may not have had the ability to form intent (let alone sentience) but it's presence was killing me until my MD intervened.
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Terrible but thankfully both survived.

Not like with my friend's wife...expecting 2nd child. No complications, no health issues...until the birth. After hours in agony, both were lost in childbirth completely unexpectedly.

Every single pregnancy risks a woman's life, it's not predictable and not always preventable.
 
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Fledermaus said:
And the fetus did so with malice a forethought?

The fetus chose to hurt you.

Yeah, there is a difference.

That being said you made your choice and all ended well.
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From previous threads:

Why do you value an attribute that is only emptiness? There's no ability to act, no intent. It's the same 'innocence' of a flower or a couch...a vacuum, nothing. Why do you give credit to something for literally 'nothing?'​


Why do you value this 'innocence' of emptiness more than the entirety of the life of the mother? And all that she is already contributing to society, including the responsibilities to her current family, often even other dependents?



(Cue: some 'less than stellar' readers may jump to 'you are comparing little babies to flowers and couches!' To those readers I ask, spare me the hysterics and read it again.)
 
Lursa said:
Terrible but thankfully both survived.

Not like with my friend's wife...expecting 2nd child. No complications, no health issues...until the birth. After hours in agony, both were lost in childbirth completely unexpected.

Every single pregnancy risks a woman's life, it's not predictable and not always preventable.
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And the risks do not end at child birth. Complications of pregnancy can occur after birth as well.
 
Lursa said:
From previous threads:

Why do you value an attribute that is only emptiness? There's no ability to act, no intent. It's the same 'innocence' of a flower or a couch...a vacuum, nothing. Why do you give credit to something for literally 'nothing?'​


Why do you value this 'innocence' of emptiness more than the entirety of the life of the mother? And all that she is already contributing to society, including the responsibilities to her current family, often even other dependents?



(Cue: some 'less than stellar' readers may jump to 'you are comparing little babies to flowers and couches!' To those readers I ask, spare me the hysterics and read it again.)
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My statement on the matter....

Fledermaus said:
I am not an "avid" anti abortionist. Pro choice, but don't wish to see innocent life extinguished.

But I can say the difference is in one case someone has done a crime so heinous that they have forfeited their right to life.

When a fetus does the same call me.
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The difference between someone doing evil and someone who hasn't.

Felon vs. Fetus.
 
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Fledermaus said:
My statement on the matter....



The difference between someone doing evil and someone who hasn't.

Felon vs. Fetus.
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You didnt answer my question, it was a pretty direct question.

Why do you value the innocence of nothingness, a vacuum, over the entirety of the life of a woman?

Neither has done anything evil and the unborn isnt even capable of it. So why would you give credit to something for literally 'nothing?'
 
year2late said:
I would like to give additional perspective to the bolded. I agree that they are acknowledging the lack of resources to raise a (or another child) but even more, I think they are acknowledging the lack of personal/social/medical resources to remain pregnant. Having to give up shifts due to appointments, medical needs, and restrictions due to pregnancy can be lead to shelter life or homelessness. Most women who chose abortion already are trying to raise a child at home. Being pregnant and under resourced can put her born child at risk.
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I wholeheartedly agree.
 
Sanctity of all life is not the reason for wanting abortion banned. If it was the killing food animals would also be banned.
Beginning of life isn't at issue because sperm, eggs, contraception, disposal of fertilized eggs are not being discussed.
Rights of the fetus to become a child isn't the issue because there is no support for the fetus when it becomes a child.
Objection to abortion based on the looks of the procedure isn't the issue or all operations would be banned.
Morality isn't the issue since groups objecting to abortion get abortions at the same rate as pro-choice proponents.
The Bible has nothing to say about abortion other than to establish payment should an enemy cause a woman to miscarry.
Common sense dictates that when a woman says she cannot financially or emotionally support a child is would be child abuse to force her to give birth to a child she doesn't want and can't support.


At it's core abortion is about power. The power of religion to dictate civil law; to establish the ascendency of church over state.
 
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Logician Man said:
and is also a supporter of capital punishment ? And how do you rectify the two if value of life is your main argument for being anti-abortion ?
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The value of life differs greatly from person to person, in my view. If someone killed my children, their life would be worthless to me, hence the death penalty call is an easy one to make. However, there was nothing worthless about my 9 month gestation being a healthy newborn in 1971, therefore I can't extend that worthlessness to another fetus.
 
Rickeroo said:
The value of life differs greatly from person to person, in my view. If someone killed my children, their life would be worthless to me, hence the death penalty call is an easy one to make. However, there was nothing worthless about my 9 month gestation being a healthy newborn in 1971, therefore I can't extend that worthlessness to another fetus.
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Because you do not support abortion is no reason to imply that other women consider the fetus "worthless". Every woman that has an abortion takes the ending of life seriously. It is not the equivalent of taking out the trash. Abortions are done primarily because women value a child and knowing that she and her family are not capable, for what ever reason, of raising a child with the security and support it needs and deserves she aborts that which she cannot support.
 
weaver2 said:
Because you do not support abortion is no reason to imply that other women consider the fetus "worthless". Every woman that has an abortion takes the ending of life seriously. It is not the equivalent of taking out the trash. Abortions are done primarily because women value a child and knowing that she and her family are not capable, for what ever reason, of raising a child with the security and support it needs and deserves she aborts that which she cannot support.
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I do support abortion, I also support capital punishment. The key is justification.
 
Fledermaus said:
Still the ABORTION thread. Troll elsewhere.
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Did the child thrown into a Trump concentration camp enter the country with "malice of forethought"?

Yes or no, Fled.
 
Fledermaus said:
My statement on the matter....



The difference between someone doing evil and someone who hasn't.

Felon vs. Fetus.
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You still didnt answer my question, it was a pretty direct question.

Why do you value the innocence of nothingness, a vacuum, over the entirety of the life of a woman?

Neither has done anything evil and the unborn isnt even capable of it. So why would you give credit to something for literally 'nothing?'

As I read here recently, self-determination is the most basic element of freedom (Sangha)...why do you believe that the unborn is more entitled to that than the woman?
 
Lursa said:
You still didnt answer my question, it was a pretty direct question.

Why do you value the innocence of nothingness, a vacuum, over the entirety of the life of a woman?

Neither has done anything evil and the unborn isnt even capable of it. So why would you give credit to something for literally 'nothing?'

As I read here recently, self-determination is the most basic element of freedom (Sangha)...why do you believe that the unborn is more entitled to that than the woman?
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Have I said, inferred or implied I valued fetus over mother or mother over fetus?

No.

My statement had to do with FETUS VS. FELON.

FETUS vs. FELON.

I think I was very clear about that.

Now... The question of Fetus vs. Mother....

Wonderful question.

Let me think about it.
 
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