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Socialized medicine at its finest, forced abortion in the UK

EMNofSeattle said:
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However if you want to go there, all original states banned abortion at the time of the constitution and the framers saw no reason to mention this and the constitution was never amended on this issue, therefore you’ve just argued that Roe v Wade is illegitimate law not based on history nor amendment
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You are mistaken.

In fact the first laws passed were in 1800s and they were passed to protect women not prevent abortions per se.

The earliest anti-abortion laws were intended to protect women from untrained abortionists.

Records indicate abortions occurred unregulated during the 1800s, and the number of deaths caused by complications from illegal and unsafe abortions is impossible to determine. By the end on the 19th century, abortion was criminalized


1821 -- America's first statutory abortion regulation is enacted in Connecticut in order to protect women from abortion inducement through poison administered after the fourth month of pregnancy.

1856 -- Leading pro-life advocate Dr. Horatio Storer establishes a national drive by the American Medical Association (AMA) to end legal abortion. First trimester abortion at this point (in most states) is legal or a misdemeanor.

1873 -- The Comstock Act bans access to information about abortion and birth control.

1890 -- Abortion is regulated by statutes advocated by the AMA, and abortion is permitted upon conferral of one or more physicians who believe the procedure is necessary to preserve the life of preserve the life of the mother.
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Read more:


Timeline of abortion laws and events - Chicago Tribune
 
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EMNofSeattle said:
Also blacks and women were not denied personhood rights, this is simply false as a historical matter.
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Try reading a history book. What rights did property have? The ignorance you spout is endless.

all original states banned abortion at the time of the constitution
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Did they? What evidence do you have or is this just another one of your ignorant lies?
 
EMNofSeattle said:
However if you want to go there, all original states banned abortion at the time of the constitution
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Incorrect (bolding mine):

In the first chapter of the United States' history, laws regarding abortions did not exist until the 1800s. At that time, women weren't allowed to vote, become doctors, or join the American Medical Association (AMA). The AMA and religious leaders were actively advocating the passage of laws outlawing abortion. In the nineteenth century, abortions were generally unsafe and the women who managed to survive abortions often became sterile. By the 1880s, all states had laws criminalizing abortions, and these laws stayed intact until the 1960s and 1970s.

Abortion History in the U.S. - FindLaw
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iguanaman said:
She is not a "grown woman". She is severely mentally handicapped and a court has every right to make important decisions for her. This is not unusual.
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Yes, she is a grown woman - she is in her 20's. I am glad the original court decision was overturned on appeal.
 
The anti-abortion crowd is gloating and cheering that a child will now be born into a family where the mother is significantly mentally retarded and the grandmother appears to be incapable of protecting her daughter from getting raped. It is almost certain that the retarded mother will be raped again and bring another child to live in these conditions.

How many think this is a responsible and caring situation in which to raise a child?
 
weaver2 said:
The anti-abortion crowd is gloating and cheering that a child will now be born into a family where the mother is significantly mentally retarded and the grandmother appears to be incapable of protecting her daughter from getting raped. It is almost certain that the retarded mother will be raped again and bring another child to live in these conditions.

How many think this is a responsible and caring situation in which to raise a child?
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A woman should never be forced to birth or abort.
There's your responsible and caring answer.
 
Scrabaholic said:
Yes, she is a grown woman - she is in her 20's. I am glad the original court decision was overturned on appeal.
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Unfortunately, according to what I have read ( several articles ) it seems the grandmother might have to leave the county.

So from my understanding , they might need put the baby up for adoption immediately after it is born , but that is for the courts to decide based on the info they have. At least the wishes of the pregnant woman and her mother that she does not want an abortion will be followed.
 
trixare4kids said:
A woman should never be forced to birth or abort.
There's your responsible and caring answer.
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The woman has the mentality of 6-9 years old. We don't allow 6-9 year olds make legal decisions. We don't allow them to make medical decisions. They don't get to decide what religion or no religion they grow up with. They don't even get to make supper decisions very often. And yet religious anti-abortion conservatives are cheering that a person with a 6-9 year old mentality is will birth, care for and make decisions for another child. d.

This issue is not about the health or welfare of a fetus. This is about winning. So, OK you won. It will almost certainly not end well for the child or for society and will cost a great deal in taxes.
 
Scrabaholic said:
Yes, she is a grown woman - she is in her 20's. I am glad the original court decision was overturned on appeal.
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Because the world needs more mentally handicapped rapists? I do not think so.
 
trixare4kids said:
A woman should never be forced to birth or abort.
There's your responsible and caring answer.
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Child abuse and it's consequences are serious problems in families where one or both parents are mentally retarded

Journal of Psychological Medicine
Children born to mentally retarded women: a 1–21 year follow-up study of 41 cases
Christopher Gillberg and Marianne Geijer-Karlsson
Published online: 09 July 2009

Synopsis: Fifteen mentally retarded Swedish women, judged to be a representative sample, gave birth to 41 children. These children were followed up at the age of 1–21 years with regard to registrations in the Social Register, the Board for Provisions and Services to the Mentally Retarded and the files of the Child and Youth Psychiatric Departments. One child had died, and of the remaining 40 85% had or had exhibited severe psychosocial problems according to register data. The implications of the findings are discussed.

Allowing a mentally retarded woman to give birth is probably not a good decision for the child or society.
 
weaver2 said:
Child abuse and it's consequences are serious problems in families where one or both parents are mentally retarded

Journal of Psychological Medicine
Children born to mentally retarded women: a 1–21 year follow-up study of 41 cases
Christopher Gillberg and Marianne Geijer-Karlsson
Published online: 09 July 2009

Synopsis: Fifteen mentally retarded Swedish women, judged to be a representative sample, gave birth to 41 children. These children were followed up at the age of 1–21 years with regard to registrations in the Social Register, the Board for Provisions and Services to the Mentally Retarded and the files of the Child and Youth Psychiatric Departments. One child had died, and of the remaining 40 85% had or had exhibited severe psychosocial problems according to register data. The implications of the findings are discussed.

Allowing a mentally retarded woman to give birth is probably not a good decision for the child or society.
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Even better....not to get raped at all
 
year2late said:
Even better....not to get raped at all
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Yes, it would have been better not to get raped, much better. The mother that didn't or wouldn't or couldn't supervise the daughter so the rape didn't happen is now offering to take care of the baby the daughter will give birth to as a result of the rape or rapes. What are the chances she will be able to protect the baby so it will not get raped?

Conservative Christians are cheering that the mentally retarded daughter is going to birth a child into this environment. The anti-abortion movement is not about protecting a fetus. It's about winning as personal validation.
 
weaver2 said:
The woman has the mentality of 6-9 years old. We don't allow 6-9 year olds make legal decisions. We don't allow them to make medical decisions. They don't get to decide what religion or no religion they grow up with. They don't even get to make supper decisions very often. And yet religious anti-abortion conservatives are cheering that a person with a 6-9 year old mentality is will birth, care for and make decisions for another child. d.

This issue is not about the health or welfare of a fetus. This is about winning. So, OK you won. It will almost certainly not end well for the child or for society and will cost a great deal in taxes.
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It's been overturned.
Get over it. It appears you're the one who wants to win.
Who are you to decide what's in the best interest of the woman? You're not a judge.
You know what you sound like? Some busy body from the fifties and sixties, the flip side though. You're still a part of the group of busy bodies who wants to deny this woman her rights.
 
trixare4kids said:
It's been overturned.
Get over it. It appears you're the one who wants to win.
Who are you to decide what's in the best interest of the woman? You're not a judge.
You know what you sound like? Some busy body from the fifties and sixties, the flip side though. You're still a part of the group of busy bodies who wants to deny this woman her rights.
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The woman has a mental age of 6 to 9 years old. Six to nine year olds do not have any rights except to be raised in an environment that is loving and protective. We do not allow 6, 7, 8 and 9 year olds make decisions about other people's lives. Anyone demanding that a 6 to 9 year old be given a live human to play with in an environment that will be totally unprotected from abuse by the mother, neglect by the grandmother, pedophiles from God knows where , and who ever raped the daughter in the first place.

Treating the baby as a toy and the mentally retarded woman as an intelligent adult is the exact reverse of what should be going on in this family. The original judge was 100% correct in treating the pregnant-from-rape mother as a child and making a decision for her that she is incapable of making for herself. The child and society will suffer from the overturning of the judges decision.
 
trixare4kids said:
It's been overturned.
Get over it. It appears you're the one who wants to win.
Who are you to decide what's in the best interest of the woman? You're not a judge.
You know what you sound like? Some busy body from the fifties and sixties, the flip side though. You're still a part of the group of busy bodies who wants to deny this woman her rights.
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I may think the the woman and her mother (her decisionmaker) should have the final say in whether she remains pregnant or not....

But we should not pretend that the likely outcome for all is not good.

A grandmother likely will be made to leave England. A woman who will bear a child that she will probably not be able to keep (maintaining the pregnancy is not equal to being able to keep her baby when born)

A baby born to a mother with mental illness - heredity can be a factor. Who knows whether the father had similar issues. At best he was mentally ill, at worst a rapist.It is very possible the baby born will have a life of similar challenges. But of course there is hope and prayer. And I do hope this baby is born and has a healthy life and a stable home.

But I will not pretend that even though I want the woman and her decision maker to be free to make their choice....I will not pretend that there is not a world of hurt ahead for the three of them.:(
 
weaver2 said:
The anti-abortion crowd is gloating and cheering that a child will now be born into a family where the mother is significantly mentally retarded and the grandmother appears to be incapable of protecting her daughter from getting raped. It is almost certain that the retarded mother will be raped again and bring another child to live in these conditions.

How many think this is a responsible and caring situation in which to raise a child?
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There's not enough information to know what happened. She could have gone somewhere with a trusted family member who took advantage of her. I think it's premature to blame her mother.
 
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