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Abortion Is Against Science And Common Sense, Its Murder

code1211 said:
And I dismissed the specific consideration of the legality in my response to your post.

As with so many decisions rendered by our courts, morality plays little or no role in the decisions on abortion in consideration of the rights of the unborn. In short, there are no rights of the unborn.

The legal decisions on slavery and on abortion both demand that we define away the humanity of those injured by the practice. Personal injury presents a legal problem.

If no human is injured, then no consideration of morality is demanded or even justified. Problem solved!

The legally recognized name of the act that occurs when a slave or a fetus is killed is only a debating point if they are not recognized legally as "persons".

If either or both are considered to be "persons" legally, that changes everything related to the legality. The morality is, however, unchanged despite the word games employed to assuage one's conscience.
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You must have missed some of my earlier postings. The morality of a situation is not related to its legality. Simply because it is not murder, does not automatically make it moral. Likewise, just because something is illegal to do does not make it immoral.

Simply put abortion is not murder. And while it may indeed be so under certain religious aspects, since no one religion is universal, then neither can that definition be. Morality, however is not constrained to any particular religion and even atheists can, and often do, have morals.

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RAMOSS said:
Individual Explosive Device. It seems to be a bit extreme as birth control.
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Oh come on! Like you guys have never typoed or brain farted before.

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Re: No, abortion isn't murder

minnie616 said:
Many, many women's lives were in danger before Roe, before legal, safer abortions were an option in the US the women used illegal abortions. They were often done either by the patient herself or by an abortionist — often unknowing, unskilled and in an
unsanitary setting.
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Again I never said there weren't abortions, I never said they were sanitary.

Avoiding answering the question is not answering.

My point stands unless you can show evidence to the contrary from a reputable source.

Our parents ( maybe not yours ), and their parents before them, were able to better manage pregnancies than people today despite all the birth controls that are currently available. Parents were able to space their children out ( usually 1.5-2 years apart ) with amazing success. As a result there were far fewer unwanted pregnancies and abortions than there is today.
 
Re: No, abortion isn't murder

GodlessBrandy said:
Way to select a portion of my statement for no other reason that to show it out of context.

I never said there weren't abortions in the past what I said was they were not commonplace. Our parents, and their parents, and so forth, were able to manage pregnancies better than we do today. Most were even able to plan when they had children ( ie. 2 years apart ) with great success without all the benefits we have today in birth control.
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I only quote the part I am referring to.

Please provide proof your claim.
 
maquiscat said:
Oh come on! Like you guys have never typoed or brain farted before.

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that's why the tongue in cheek sarcasm.
 
Re: No, abortion isn't murder

GodlessBrandy said:
Not according to your chart.

My point stands unless you can show evidence to the contrary from a reputable source.

Our parents ( maybe not yours ), and their parents before them, were able to better manage pregnancies than people today despite all the birth controls that are currently available. Parents were able to space their children out ( usually 1.5-2 years apart ) with amazing success. As a result there were far fewer unwanted pregnancies and abortions than there is today.
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After I graduated from University of British Columbia medical school in 1962, I went to
Chicago, where I served my internship and Ob/Gyn residency at Cook County Hospital. At that
time, Cook County had about 3,000 beds, and served a mainly indigent population. If you were
really sick, or really poor, or both, Cook County was where you went.

The first month of my internship was spent on Ward 41, the septic obstetrics ward. Yes, it's hard
to believe now, but in those days, they had one ward dedicated exclusively to septic
complications of pregnancy.

About 90% of the patients were there with complications of septic abortion. The ward had about
40 beds, in addition to extra beds which lined the halls. Each day we admitted between 10-30
septic abortion patients. We had about one death a month, usually from septic shock associated
with hemorrhage.

http://nafcanada.org/documents/Romaliscolumn.pdf
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That's just ONE hospital. Rare, my butt.
 
Re: No, abortion isn't murder

GodlessBrandy said:
The proof is there, just ask your parents. lol
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So, you can't prove it. I understand. Perhaps you should stop asking others for proof of their claims when you can't provide proof of yours....
 
Re: No, abortion isn't murder

minnie616 said:
From Wiki:



Abortion in the United States - Wikipedia

This graph is from 1960 to 2013

United States abortion rates, 1960-2013

The 2014 stat is the CDC stats. I will look that up.



Abortion Surveillance — United States, 2014 | MMWR
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And when you think of the reasons for abortion back in the 1930s....it closely resembles why many women chose abortion today. Housing and food insecurity are major issues. Most women who chose abortion are poor or working poor.

I wonder if folks who blather on about "convenience" abortion think if women in the depression aborted mostly out of convenience.
 
Re: No, abortion isn't murder

Scrabaholic said:
So, you can't prove it. I understand. Perhaps you should stop asking others for proof of their claims when you can't provide proof of yours....
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Actually I can I just don't care to. Maybe you have nothing better to with your life than prove things to people you don't know, have never met, will never meet, but I do. On a scale of 1-10 on the level of importance I have that you agree with me is -1000 lol
 
Re: A sense of decency

southwest88 said:
Premature births, depending upon the degree of prematurity, are a tragedy. Yes, by expending a lot of care & attention & resources, NICU, respirators, monitors, etc. the baby may live - but if too premature, the child's life may never catch up with the development of children who were born @ full term. That's assuming that the woman & fetus can get to a hospital with an NICU, & has the staff & training & equipment & etc. to intervene & help the baby survive.

These children are not counters in some game of partisan one-upmanship - the stakes are very high for the individuals & families involved.
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It is natural for a loving mother to want her baby saved alive even if it is born handicapped. It is not natural for a mother to want her healthy unborn child murdered before it is born.
 
Re: No, abortion isn't murder

GodlessBrandy said:
Actually I can I just don't care to. Maybe you have nothing better to with your life than prove things to people you don't know, have never met, will never meet, but I do. On a scale of 1-10 on the level of importance I have that you agree with me is -1000 lol
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Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with proper debate technique.... you have time to be on here, surely you have time to back up what you claim.
 
Re: No, abortion isn't murder

Scrabaholic said:
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with proper debate technique.... you have time to be on here, surely you have time to back up what you claim.
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And as I said before go ask your parents or grandparents how they, and others of their generation, managed to plan families, without the benefits of modern birth control, and with fewer unwanted pregnancies or abortions.
 
Re: No, abortion isn't murder

GodlessBrandy said:
And as I said before go ask your parents or grandparents how they, and others of their generation, managed to plan families, without the benefits of modern birth control, and with fewer unwanted pregnancies or abortions.
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Abortions go back to before the early Greek days.


Couples had more children.
You seem to to think a space of one and half to two years between kids is managing a family.

Currently , most women just want two children.

My father was one of 10 children.

My mother was one of 6 children.
Her mom died when my mom was 14 months old.

You seem to think women are using abortion as birth control..

That’s not true.



If abortion were used as a primary method of birth control, a typical woman would have at least two or three pregnancies per year -- 30 or more during her lifetime.

In fact, most women who have abortions have had no previous abortions (52%) or only one previous abortion (26%)5.

Considering that most women are fertile for over 30 years, and that birth control is not perfect, the likelihood of having one or two unintended pregnancies is very high.
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https://5aa1b2xfmfh2e2mk03kk8rsx-wp...-content/uploads/women_who_have_abortions.pdf
 
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Re: No, abortion isn't murder

minnie616 said:
Abortions go back to before the early Greek days.


Couples had more children.
You seem to to think a space of one and half to two years is between kids is managing a family.

Currently , most women just want two children.
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You seem to think that parents and grandparents and their parents etc had the same concept of children or a family unit we have today.

Like my parents who both came from a family of 11 ( 11 on my mother's side, 11 on my father's ) large family's were the norm in their day. I come from a family of 7. Small family units of less than 5 did not even become a thing until the last 40 years. Large families were managed, nowadays parents, for the most part, fall into parenthood.
 
Re: No, abortion isn't murder

GodlessBrandy said:
And as I said before go ask your parents or grandparents how they, and others of their generation, managed to plan families, without the benefits of modern birth control, and with fewer unwanted pregnancies or abortions.
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They didn't. My grandmother almost died giving birth to her youngest, who was very much unplanned. She subsequently resented her child, and the child grew up knowing she was resented.
 
marke said:
And yet they are human. They sleep. They wake. They move. They feel. And they think.
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What do they think while they only have two neurones to rub together? Do they support Trump?
 
Re: No, abortion isn't murder

GodlessBrandy said:
You seem to think that parents and grandparents and their parents etc had the same concept of children or a family unit we have today.

Like my parents who both came from a family of 11 ( 11 on my mother's side, 11 on my father's ) large family's were the norm in their day. I come from a family of 7. Small family units of less than 5 did not even become a thing until the last 40 years. Large families were managed, nowadays parents, for the most part, fall into parenthood.
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Exactly they use to have large numbers of kids and as result many women died at an earlier age.

Babies and young children often died at an early age.

My grandmother had a set of twin boys that died soon after birth a couple years before my mom was born. My grandmother died from a bad gall bladder when my mom was 14 months old.

All my children were planned and wanted.

My husband and I have 4 children now grown.

Three are married and they planned their children also.
 
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Re: A sense of decency

marke said:
It is natural for a loving mother to want her baby saved alive even if it is born handicapped. It is not natural for a mother to want her healthy unborn child murdered before it is born.
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Nature says that 2/3 of all pregnancies fail to reach term. The OP on this thread was about a premature baby, who survived because of her will to live (I assume), plus the amount of medical practitioner time & effort, resources, meds, etc. that were enlisted in the effort.

It's not clear that Saybie is handicapped - she'll likely have developmental delays, because she was born premature. Whether she can close the gaps & approach normal developmental stages in good time - we'll have to wait & see.

There are several crises going on in health care in the US. One is expense - it's unreachably expensive, if you're not working a job with medical benefits. (& possibly even then; employers are shifting as much of that expense to employees as possible.)

Two - is distribution - GPs & NICUs & all the related assets are largely in major metropolitan areas. Which means if you're in rural N. Dakota & need specialists, it's an ambulance ride or chopper to the nearest center.

Three - GPs are in short supply. It's a question of income - there's more demand for plastic surgery, cardiac, cancer, & so on. & so the big metropolitan centers, in order to meet payroll, concentrate on what's wanted, rather than what's needed @ the basic level of care. It's a political problem as much as an economic problem (& there's an ethical problem there, too), but I haven't seen any real efforts to solve that.

Four - We need more doctors & nurses (& hospitals & clinics) - but the schools apparently like having high demand for trained personnel. All well & good, for the employment prospects of the graduates - not so good for the country @ large, if we ever get a real outbreak of highly infectious Ebola, God forbid.
 
Re: No, abortion isn't murder

GodlessBrandy said:
Way to select a portion of my statement for no other reason that to show it out of context.

I never said there weren't abortions in the past what I said was they were not commonplace. Our parents, and their parents, and so forth, were able to manage pregnancies better than we do today. Most were even able to plan when they had children ( ie. 2 years apart ) with great success without all the benefits we have today in birth control.
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There is the question of commonplace versus acknowledged. Homosexuality has been around forever, but only recently is it possible to be open about it. While some in history have been able to do so, now ever increasing numbers are "coming out". Abortions are similar. While they would happen, they weren't talked about. Teens who got pregnant used to disappear for a few months and come back suddenly not pregnant, or claiming to never have actually been so. Such events just don't get recorded and tracked. Don't mistake a recent ability to be open about it as new cases.

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