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Abortion Is Against Science And Common Sense, Its Murder

Re: There is a price tag, & when you exceed it, everything goes into slow motion

Waddy said:
Money isn't the reason women don't get prenatal care. There's a variety of reasons. Rationing what we spend on premature babies is a solution in search of a problem. But what you ARE insisting on is leaving some babies to die, because they are more expensive.
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Actually lack of trained neo natal specialists and equipment limits care for preemies. If a 22 week preemie ( with a 20 percent chance of surviving) is using the last neo natal CPAP machine unit the hospital has available the 24 week old preemie with the 60 percent chance of survival with a CPAP loses his /her chance of survival.
 
Re: There is a price tag, & when you exceed it, everything goes into slow motion

Waddy said:
Money isn't the reason women don't get prenatal care. There's a variety of reasons. Rationing what we spend on premature babies is a solution in search of a problem. But what you ARE insisting on is leaving some babies to die, because they are more expensive.
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No, I'm pointing out the facts of life: Saybie survived her birth & is still alive because extraordinary care & resources were lavished on her - which both carry price tags. Yes, it's good that she's alive. The question remains: How many births & aftercare @ that scale of expenditures can US natal & early childhood sustain? Not many, & it's a real issue. If we hope to put the same amount of resources into every preemie birth, we need to ramp up building hospitals/clinics, training medical personnel, & producing more meds & medical equipment, & so on.

The current US prenatal & neonatal system ignores a lot of issues. Prenatal care would @ least identify potential issues, & allow reasonable concentration of medical efforts where they're most needed & most likely to make a difference. Notice that that conversation is not a feel-good slam dunk - apparently no one wants to discuss how good prenatal care for the woman & her fetus across the country would lead to better outcomes medically & financially (?) for the families, & likely for the hospital/clinic, & in the long run, for the US health care system.
 
Re: There is a price tag, & when you exceed it, everything goes into slow motion

Waddy said:
Money isn't the reason women don't get prenatal care. There's a variety of reasons. Rationing what we spend on premature babies is a solution in search of a problem. But what you ARE insisting on is leaving some babies to die, because they are more expensive.
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From Time:

The Cost of Premature Birth: For One Family, More than $2 Million

A new report released Wednesday finds that 15 million babies worldwide are born prematurely each year. For any hope of prevention, preterm birth needs to raise its PR profile.

...
Of every 100 babies born in the U.S., 12 arrive preterm, accounting for about half a million births each year.

....

The U.S. Institute of Medicine has calculated the annual costs associated with preterm birth at more than $26 billion.
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The Cost of Premature Birth: For One Family, More than $2 Million | TIME.com
 
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Re: There is a price tag, & when you exceed it, everything goes into slow motion

Waddy said:
So you're against treating these babies? Too expensive is it. Like I said, let 'em all die.
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Try to stay within bounds. No one is saying let them die. On the other hand, we (the US) need to find a more effective & equitable way to distribute health care - especially to pregnant women & fetuses pre birth, & then in aftercare for a couple of years. Money & personnel & other material resources for health care, let alone for prenatal & postnatal health care, are scarce. The problem is how to treat as many patients as possible, so that as many outcomes as possible are positive, instead of performing death-defying & undoubtedly more dramatic one-off performances for the cameras, & much ballyhooed in the bought-&-paid-for media.

It's an ethical question, worthy of discussion, & not just a PR issue.
 
AGENT J said:
1.) deflection and lie 1 fails
2.) deflection and lie 2 fails
3.) and deflection and lie 3 fails, you're out!

heres your failed claim you can support:


Please post one fact that makes it true and explain how you factually separate them, thanks!
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Which I pointed in stating that both the body of the mother and the body of the child a separate. But if you want to keep playing this stupid game of yours, then I invite you to do so alone.
 
AGENT J said:
for yourself or for the law?

the majority of women dont even know they are pregnant until 4-7 weeks and many dont know even much longer than that 8-16.
this happens because they are on BC already and they stop having periods, or have very irregular periods and have sickness sometimes due to their irregular or nonexistent cycles. They have no reason to think they are pregnant and theres no obvious signs for them. Since your other claim already failed and theres no way to factually separate them o what do you suggest for all those women, you know, the majority........
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No, thinking my claim failed and just choosing to ignore anything that derails your own narrative, are two very different things. But then again, I'm used to you pulling this kind of crap over and over. Instead of actually manning up and having any sort of civil conversation.
 
Oborosen said:
Which I pointed in stating that both the body of the mother and the body of the child a separate. But if you want to keep playing this stupid game of yours, then I invite you to do so alone.
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Translation: you still cant support your claim so you continue to deflect . . it . . . . will . . . .never . . . . work . . . . . either post with honesty and integrity and admit you cant or ill simply keep pointing out your failed lie.

Please post one fact that makes it true and explain how you factually separate them, thanks!
 
Scrabaholic said:
We cannot will ourselves to get or not get pregnant. If we could, there would be no need for fertility or abortion clinics.
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I'm not asking you to subvert nature. I'm asking you to be a responsible adult, who at least makes an attempt to know what is going on with their own body.

Nothing more.
 
Oborosen said:
No, thinking my claim failed and just choosing to ignore anything that derails your own narrative, are two very different things. But then again, I'm used to you pulling this kind of crap over and over. Instead of actually manning up and having any sort of civil conversation.
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and another failed deflection and lie. If you want civil conversation dont post lies and false claims, this will easily fix your problem.
Your claim factually failed and thats proven by your inability to prove otherwise, your feelings will never change that fact

ill ask you AGAIN, and we'll watch you dodge and run again

for yourself or for the law?

the majority of women dont even know they are pregnant until 4-7 weeks and many dont know even much longer than that 8-16.
this happens because they are on BC already and they stop having periods, or have very irregular periods and have sickness sometimes due to their irregular or nonexistent cycles. They have no reason to think they are pregnant and theres no obvious signs for them. Since your other claim already failed and theres no way to factually separate them what do you suggest for all those women, you know, the majority........
 
Re: No, abortion isn't murder

southwest88 said:
our legal system protects people - Yes, but our legal system (in Roe v. Wade) holds that in order to be a person, in the legal sense, that individual has to be born, or @ least viable outside the womb. & since most elective abortions take place early in the pregnancy, the fetus isn't a person, isn't viable, & so the abortion is permissible. & abortion, under the terms of Roe, isn't murder.

same protection extends to animals - No, animals don't have rights either. The animal is considered the property of the owner, even if the owner is unknown. The laws against animal cruelty assume that the owner's interest will be harmed, if the animal is harmed. & proceeds from there.

The fetus will become a person, when born or viable. But only 1/3 of pregnancies go to term - there are miscarriages, accidents, crimes - there's a lot of happenstance along the way. The law is conservative, it makes judgments about who is a person (in the legal sense) on a case-by-case basis. Given the chaos in the world, that's probably the best way to do it.
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Cruelty to animals charges would have me disagreeing with you.

If Roe V Wade is any indication. Then you're just saying that while the child is in the womb. It isn't recognized as a person, or even that it's life has value as the ruling makes no such mention in it's own proceedings.

I completely accept the idea of how much this chaos plays on in the world. But I'm not discussing chaos. I'm discussing why to some, a fetus has not value as an individual life.
 
Re: We've been down this route a lot

southwest88 said:
UK & US common law, precedents, US Supreme Court rulings & holdings. Lursa & Minnie616 have put up the legal case various times here, just look around under their postings & you'll find the cases laid out, & links to the documents.
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I've seen. Touching only on when the fetus/child gains rights "legally". Not on how such a conclusion of how it someone gains worth as an actual life, just by a spontaneous moment.
 
Logician Man said:
/// But a woman does not grow an animal in her womb. /// <--- this is factually incorrect as humans are scientifically classified as 'animals'. ( biology 101 )
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If you're just going to argue by splitting hairs on semantics alone. Then you've willingly booted yourself from having a stance here.
 
AGENT J said:
Translation: you still cant support your claim so you continue to deflect . . it . . . . will . . . .never . . . . work . . . . . either post with honesty and integrity and admit you cant or ill simply keep pointing out your failed lie.

Please post one fact that makes it true and explain how you factually separate them, thanks!
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I did post and you still ignored it as though it was never in front of you. So should I go ahead and keep pointing out this thinly veiled trolling, or be done with it?
 
AGENT J said:
and another failed deflection and lie. If you want civil conversation dont post lies and false claims, this will easily fix your problem.
Your claim factually failed and thats proven by your inability to prove otherwise, your feelings will never change that fact

ill ask you AGAIN, and we'll watch you dodge and run again

for yourself or for the law?

the majority of women dont even know they are pregnant until 4-7 weeks and many dont know even much longer than that 8-16.
this happens because they are on BC already and they stop having periods, or have very irregular periods and have sickness sometimes due to their irregular or nonexistent cycles. They have no reason to think they are pregnant and theres no obvious signs for them. Since your other claim already failed and theres no way to factually separate them what do you suggest for all those women, you know, the majority........
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I have no need to dodge and run away. From some one who doesn't even stand and fight.
 
Oborosen said:
I did post and you still ignored it as though it was never in front of you. So should I go ahead and keep pointing out this thinly veiled trolling, or be done with it?
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again facts wont change based on your lies or feelings, you still have yet to support your claim
Oborosen said:
The topic of abortion has always concerned the life of the child, not the mothers body. (health and life)
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Please post one fact that makes it true and explain how you factually separate them, thanks!
 
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Oborosen said:
I have no need to dodge and run away. From some one who doesn't even stand and fight.
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Yet much to my delight you just factually did it AGAIN

ill ask you AGAIN, and we'll watch you dodge and run again

for yourself or for the law?

the majority of women dont even know they are pregnant until 4-7 weeks and many dont know even much longer than that 8-16.
this happens because they are on BC already and they stop having periods, or have very irregular periods and have sickness sometimes due to their irregular or nonexistent cycles. They have no reason to think they are pregnant and theres no obvious signs for them. Since your other claim already failed and theres no way to factually separate them what do you suggest for all those women, you know, the majority........
 
I wonder if the afterlife exists and all these babies are just floating around as little angry fetuses.
 
AGENT J said:
again facts wont change based on your lies or feelings, you still have yet to support your claim

Please post one fact that makes it true and explain how you factually separate them, thanks!
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(sigh)... still going to play this stupid game huh J?
 
AGENT J said:
Yet much to my delight you just factually did it AGAIN

ill ask you AGAIN, and we'll watch you dodge and run again

for yourself or for the law?

the majority of women dont even know they are pregnant until 4-7 weeks and many dont know even much longer than that 8-16.
this happens because they are on BC already and they stop having periods, or have very irregular periods and have sickness sometimes due to their irregular or nonexistent cycles. They have no reason to think they are pregnant and theres no obvious signs for them. Since your other claim already failed and theres no way to factually separate them what do you suggest for all those women, you know, the majority........
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You've been trolling this thread long enough to have already read the answer for that J. It was basically in the post that mine was quoting.
 
Oborosen said:
(sigh)... still going to play this stupid game huh J?
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Yes im still pointing out the fact you cant support your claim and exposing your failed dodged and deflections. Its fun! So now, please post one fact that makes it true and explain how you factually separate them, thanks!
 
Oborosen said:
You've been trolling this thread long enough to have already read the answer for that J. It was basically in the post that mine was quoting.
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another dodge, i love it!

l ask you AGAIN, and we'll watch you dodge and run again

for yourself or for the law?

the majority of women dont even know they are pregnant until 4-7 weeks and many dont know even much longer than that 8-16.
this happens because they are on BC already and they stop having periods, or have very irregular periods and have sickness sometimes due to their irregular or nonexistent cycles. They have no reason to think they are pregnant and theres no obvious signs for them. Since your other claim already failed and theres no way to factually separate them what do you suggest for all those women, you know, the majority........
 
AGENT J said:
Yes im still pointing out the fact you cant support your claim and exposing your failed dodged and deflections. Its fun! So now, please post one fact that makes it true and explain how you factually separate them, thanks!
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I would, if I only knew that you wouldn't keep ignoring them. Because I've done so three times now if memory serves. Though I could be merging two threads in that case. The issue being that you keep just ignoring what has already been presented and don't even attempt to even posit a counter to the argument that the mother's body and that of her fetus are factually separate from one another, is telling.
 
AGENT J said:
another dodge, i love it!

l ask you AGAIN, and we'll watch you dodge and run again

for yourself or for the law?

the majority of women dont even know they are pregnant until 4-7 weeks and many dont know even much longer than that 8-16.
this happens because they are on BC already and they stop having periods, or have very irregular periods and have sickness sometimes due to their irregular or nonexistent cycles. They have no reason to think they are pregnant and theres no obvious signs for them. Since your other claim already failed and theres no way to factually separate them what do you suggest for all those women, you know, the majority........
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Once again attempting to act blind. I would say that I love this as well, however I do not enjoy the act of trolling to the same extent that you seem to.

The answer was posted. Right at the beginning of that conversation.
 
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