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What Would Be Accomplished By Making Abortion Illegal?

trouble13 said:
How do you figure that the onus is entirely on women?

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Your policies are extremely hard on women. Thus I believe it is fair to conclude you lot only want to enforce morality on her, which is the genesis of my comment.
 
Obscurity said:
Your policies are extremely hard on women. Thus I believe it is fair to conclude you lot only want to enforce morality on her, which is the genesis of my comment.
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I disagree that it is any harder on women than it is on men. If the law says that men are responsible for the consequences of sex than women should be held to the same standard.

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trouble13 said:
I disagree that it is any harder on women than it is on men. If the law says that men are responsible for the consequences of sex than women should be held to the same standard.

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The law says men have to pay some money to women if they have children.

It doesn't mandate the man deal with sleepless nights of infant care.
It doesn't mandate the man deal with sick children.
It doesn't mandate the man have their body permanently altered by birth.
It doesn't mandate the man take responsibility for this child for 18 years.

It ABSOLUTELY IS HARDER ON WOMEN.

The fact you pro birth folks consistently ignore this reality is so blatant and so obnoxious.

The law, again, RECOGNIZES PERSONS, not "human life."

This case, sir, is closed.
 
Dragonfly said:
What would be the publicly realized benefit, or accomplishment of making abortion illegal across the entire United States?

Does anyone honestly think it would prevent abortions from happening?

What's the true goal with all this? What's the end-game?

What actually changes if abortion were to be declared illegal starting right this very moment?
More importantly, how exactly does YOUR life change?

Even more specific, if you're a male, what do you gain from a sweeping change to the law?
You're a guy. Abortion is now completely illegal.
What's the benefit for you?
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What would realistically be accomplished if abortion was made illegal, and abortion laws were strictly enforced (with illegal abortion providers being stripped of their medical licenses, fined and/or imprisoned)? A couple things, I imagine. First, more children would likely be born. While I certainly am happy about that, in some areas the poverty rate would stay constant as unplanned pregnancies increase the financial burdens on families, and the foster care/adoption system would have to be overhauled to care for the increased number of children whose biological mothers/fathers cannot care for them. Second, I think the incidence rate of "casual hookups" would plummet. I think women overall (and there will always be exceptions of course) will become far more choosey and expect far greater commitments from men before they go all the way.

As for how my life as a male change? I do not imagine it would change very much. I am happily married, and not prowling around looking to sow my wild oats. However, if abortion is made "completely illegal" as in, my wife could not get an abortion even if we found out that our child was going to be born without a brain stem or some other horrible affliction that makes it so he or she would have no quality of life whatsoever? I imagine that the impact would be emotionally devastating, as well as financially devastating.
 
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trouble13 said:
I suggest you make a thread expressing the bolded part and see the warm reception it gets from the prochoice crowd. If you do you will learn fast what i learned;

They are not interested in equality. They believe that after sex occurs women get to make any choice they want and men do not get to make choices for themselves because they gave up that right when they had sex.

That is the overwhelming opinion you will find.

They are so adamantly dug in that i no longer even attempt to discuss it with them. Now we are seeing a push by prolifers to ban abortions, if they think people like me are going to support their attempt to keep things as they are, they are sadly mistaken.

I support telling women the same thing they tell men. Once you decided to have sex you lost your right to choose not to be a parent. You are now on the hook for the welfare of that life thst you created. That is why i claim banning abortions is a step toward equality in the law.

It has nothing to do with ehether or not i think abortions should be legal or not. It has to do with that i think the law should treat both parents equally. Even if its equally unfair to both of them.






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Courts have ruled in the past in other cases that semen is a gift if given to a woman. There was a man who refused sex out of wedlock; the woman and him had oral, she claimed to have spat his seed into the trash but used it to impregnate herself. He was on the hook for child support.

Because of his gift.

Now, you can argue the point all day, it's irrelevant. Undoing the right to abort would infringe privacy on so many levels, which is hysterical, because the right believes you don't have an express right to privacy (which is true, the constitution does not say you have a right to privacy, it is merely alluded to.); except Donald trump, well, he has every right to privacy.

The inherent hypocrisy of your position is a completely laughable joke. Personhood is from whence rights are determined, and laws are instituted. If you cared about the commonwealth institution of law you would know that personhood is a requirement for protection.

The authoritarian pro birthers have no answer for this and instead substitute person for life in their arguments and think it holds water.

It does not.

We are literally a flash in the life of this universe. There is no proof of god or an afterlife. We are a flash floating on a speck of dust suspended in a void of cold, careless annihilation on a scale we can never comprehend.

Why the **** are you people so hell bent on making that flash of life as miserable as ****ing possible?

There is no glory in it.
 
Felis Leo said:
What would realistically be accomplished if abortion was made illegal, and abortion laws were strictly enforced (with illegal abortion providers being stripped of their medical licenses, fined and/or imprisoned)? A couple things, I imagine. First, more children would likely be born. While I certainly am happy about that, in some areas the poverty rate would stay constant as unplanned pregnancies increase the financial burdens on families, and the foster care/adoption system would have to be overhauled to care for the increased number of children whose biological mothers/fathers cannot care for them. Second, I think the incidence rate of "casual hookups" would plummet. I think women overall (and there will always be exceptions of course) will become far more choosey and expect far greater commitments from men before they go all the way.

As for how my life as a male change? I do not imagine it would change very much. I am happily married, and not prowling around looking to sow my wild oats. However, if abortion is made "completely illegal" as in, my wife could not get an abortion even if we found out that our child was going to be born without a brain stem or some other horrible affliction that makes it so he or she would have no quality of life whatsoever? I imagine that the impact would be emotionally devastating, as well as financially devastating.
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The bolded happened to a dear friend of mine and his wife's first. Completely normal and healthy pregnancy UNTIL the final 2 weeks. She was the outlier, the less than 1%, that REQUIRES this protection.

In their case the baby (at 9 months, it is a baby.) had developed an inoperable and terminal brain tumor on the brain stem. Given the states absurd laws, my friend and his wife were FORCED to carry to term; deliver a dead infant, and have struggled with the emotional catastrophe ever since. In speaking with him, he wanted her to have an immediate c section so the child would have been delivered alive, if only for a short period of time. Since the law restricted this procedure as it would meet the definition of an abortion at that stage, they were required by law to have their lives completely demolished.

The issue I have with pro birthers in this regard is the hideous dismissal of the suffering of other people to befit their own emotional well being.

Disgusting.
 
trouble13 said:
If she keeps her legs shut she wont have an issue

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Her egg was just hanging out being an egg until it was assaulted by a mans sperm. They are the invaders. Keep your sperm to yourself and there will be no pregnancy.
 
Obscurity said:
The law says men have to pay some money to women if they have children.

It doesn't mandate the man deal with sleepless nights of infant care.
It doesn't mandate the man deal with sick children.
It doesn't mandate the man have their body permanently altered by birth.
It doesn't mandate the man take responsibility for this child for 18 years.

It ABSOLUTELY IS HARDER ON WOMEN.

The fact you pro birth folks consistently ignore this reality is so blatant and so obnoxious.

The law, again, RECOGNIZES PERSONS, not "human life."

This case, sir, is closed.
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A fathers only value in your eyes is a monthly check and therefor dont deserve any rights, but a mother is important for everything and they should being carte blanche authority. Your argument is not new.

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trouble13 said:
A fathers only value in your eyes is a monthly check and therefor dont deserve any rights, but a mother is important for everything and they should being carte blanche authority. Your argument is not new.

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Wrong. I AM A father. My value is far greater than a paycheck.

What YOU lot want to institute DIMINISHES fathers to a paycheck because you NEVER Require dads be dads to the children THEY helped create.

Your blank and useless bleating, pathetic diversions, and worthless contrivances won't save you from this. MY stance values fathers. I am a father. I love my kids dearly. I know my worth. It's sickening authoritarians like you that want to allow dads to walk away and not have to be dads to the kids you make women birth.

Pathetic.
 
Obscurity said:
Wrong. I AM A father. My value is far greater than a paycheck.

What YOU lot want to institute DIMINISHES fathers to a paycheck because you NEVER Require dads be dads to the children THEY helped create.

Your blank and useless bleating, pathetic diversions, and worthless contrivances won't save you from this. MY stance values fathers. I am a father. I love my kids dearly. I know my worth. It's sickening authoritarians like you that want to allow dads to walk away and not have to be dads to the kids you make women birth.

Pathetic.
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while i dont agree with his vile views on violating womans rights
i totally agree with a legal and equal opt out ability, always have always will cause i want legal equality and i feel its best for the child.

you say your a dad, im a dad to. And i value you REAL parents more than anything whether biological or chosen. there not much higher in this world IMO. You say you know the value of that and yourself .. .then you should understand the reality and fact that you cant make anybody be a dad or mom. No person who doesnt want to be a dad or mom will ever be a good father like you are unless they want too. No force and or law will ever create a person like you. In fact in some cases it will endanger the child because the forced person will have resentment and be abusive or still be absent.
 
AGENT J said:
while i dont agree with his vile views on violating womans rights
i totally agree with a legal and equal opt out ability, always have always will cause i want legal equality and i feel its best for the child.

you say your a dad, im a dad to. And i value you REAL parents more than anything whether biological or chosen. there not much higher in this world IMO. You say you know the value of that and yourself .. .then you should understand the reality and fact that you cant make anybody be a dad or mom. No person who doesnt want to be a dad or mom will ever be a good father like you are unless they want too. No force and or law will ever create a person like you. In fact in some cases it will endanger the child because the forced person will have resentment and be abusive or still be absent.
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I fully believe no one should be forced to be a mom or dad, and that's my entire point. These pro birthers want to force women to give birth and defacto be moms. They have no willingness to legislate a requirement a dad be forced to be a dad.

I tire of holding their balls to the fire in this aspect.

They are hypocrites of the worst description.
 
Obscurity said:
I fully believe no one should be forced to be a mom or dad, and that's my entire point. These pro birthers want to force women to give birth and defacto be moms. They have no willingness to legislate a requirement a dad be forced to be a dad.

I tire of holding their balls to the fire in this aspect.

They are hypocrites of the worst description.
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Well you wont find me agreeing with forced birth, im pro-choice with limits and always will be but to make the law legally equal there should be an opt out time for the father also. Now you wont see me starting rallies over this etc lol but it is the way i feel and if it came up i would support it.
 
trouble13 said:
A fathers only value in your eyes is a monthly check and therefor dont deserve any rights, but a mother is important for everything and they should being carte blanche authority. Your argument is not new.

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Please stop lying.
 
ocean515 said:
Prove it?

You replied to my post where I was commenting about Tim McV, with:

Executing him stopped him from killing again. Are you proposing women who abort be executed?​


The portion of your post I highlighted is completely unrelated to what I was commenting on, and the suggestion that I was proposing women who abort be executed is both an absurd and fairly obnoxious assumption.


Do you make a habit of meeting that criteria with your posts?
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I asked you to prove that it was an absurd and obnoxious assumption. You have failed to do so. I accept your retreat from your statement.
 
trouble13 said:
That is quite the admission you just made. You seem to believe men are at a disadvantage and that women are superior.

Your world view is exactly why i do not care in the least bit that prolifers are passing laws that restrict your freedoms. Have your temper tantrum and be angry all you want but you will not get and support of it from me. Its your problem not mine. You can fight your own battles.
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Lursa said:
Why do you interpret biological functions with superiority? Please explain.

If you think not being the ones to get pregnant is a 'disadvantage,' well, that sounds like something a delusional person would think. Or very possibly, someone born male but trans.
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trouble13 said:
I never expressed myself as holding any of the views you are erroneously trying to assign as mine.

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I posted like an adult and ignored your childish insults...it's silly that you believe I'm angry in the least...actually, this has been pretty satisfying.

If I mistakenly interpreted your 'superiority' claim as related to biology, then please to clarify what you think women consider ourselves superior in?

And also clarify how I admitted men are at a disadvantage. IMO the only disadvantage would be that men cannot get pregnant, but that's highly subjective as IMO it's a very painful, difficult state, altho if you want a child, then it's worth it.

(Oh, also, I dont care what you support except for your claims...it's a discussion forum.)
 
trouble13 said:
It has nothing to do with ehether or not i think abortions should be legal or not. It has to do with that i think the law should treat both parents equally. Even if its equally unfair to both of them.
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They ARE treated equally in law. BOTH have to support the child once it's born.
 
trouble13 said:
I disagree that it is any harder on women than it is on men. If the law says that men are responsible for the consequences of sex than women should be held to the same standard.

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Why are you lying? You already know that women cannot escape consequences at all if they get pregnant. What you dont like is that we have DIFFERENT choices than men...and they are all biological in nature.

Why lie when you know the facts? That's just posting in bad faith to act like you dont know it.

Here it is again, straight from OneNote:

No women that gets pregnant can avoid paying the consequences, there is no escape. There are only 4 scenarios:

--she has a kid
--miscarriage
--abortion
--dying during pregnancy/childbirth

And she can die or suffer permanent health damage from the first 3 too.

However men escape consequences in all but one of those. If they are pissed they get stuck with that one...then since they know it before they have sex...either dont have sex or accept that*your consequence is that you dont have control over the woman's choices.​

I guess you just dont like the fact that men cannot control her choices? Gee whiz, too bad that she picks the best choice for her own life and that of her family and obligations in life.
 
Obscurity said:
Wrong. I AM A father. My value is far greater than a paycheck.

What YOU lot want to institute DIMINISHES fathers to a paycheck because you NEVER Require dads be dads to the children THEY helped create.

Your blank and useless bleating, pathetic diversions, and worthless contrivances won't save you from this. MY stance values fathers. I am a father. I love my kids dearly. I know my worth. It's sickening authoritarians like you that want to allow dads to walk away and not have to be dads to the kids you make women birth.

Pathetic.
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That is really well said. Thanks. (the bold is mine)

I would encourage men to apply for joint custody but even if they dont want that, to remain involved in their children's lives.
 
Lursa said:
That is really well said. Thanks. (the bold is mine)

I would encourage men to apply for joint custody but even if they dont want that, to remain involved in their children's lives.
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I'd encourage men to stop being ****ing morons and arguing against a woman's right to choose and accept responsibility for their own actions.
 
Lursa said:
.....


I posted like an adult and ignored your childish insults...it's silly that you believe I'm angry in the least...actually, this has been pretty satisfying.

If I mistakenly interpreted your 'superiority' claim as related to biology, then please to clarify what you think women consider ourselves superior in?

And also clarify how I admitted men are at a disadvantage. IMO the only disadvantage would be that men cannot get pregnant, but that's highly subjective as IMO it's a very painful, difficult state, altho if you want a child, then it's worth it.

(Oh, also, I dont care what you support except for your claims...it's a discussion forum.)
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My response was not to you it was to someone else.

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Scrabaholic said:
They ARE treated equally in law. BOTH have to support the child once it's born.
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Right and now both do not have the choice to terminate. Equal treatment for both genders.

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Obscurity said:
I'd encourage men to stop being ****ing morons and arguing against a woman's right to choose and accept responsibility for their own actions.
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I'd encourage men to protect themselves so they dont have to whine about child support. (And yes, it's a significant thing to deal with, so why are they so irresponsible or casual on their own behalfs?)

They have complete control over becoming a father. They *choose* to risk it.

IMO many men still feel that they are entitled to sex without consequences. But times have changed...they no longer are. Just how big is their learning curve? :doh

The whining about it being unequal is ludicrous too. Women have never been able to have sex without risking the consequences and still cant.
 
Lursa said:
Why are you lying? You already know that women cannot escape consequences at all if they get pregnant. What you dont like is that we have DIFFERENT choices than men...and they are all biological in nature.

Why lie when you know the facts? That's just posting in bad faith to act like you dont know it.

Here it is again, straight from OneNote:

No women that gets pregnant can avoid paying the consequences, there is no escape. There are only 4 scenarios:

--she has a kid
--miscarriage
--abortion
--dying during pregnancy/childbirth

And she can die or suffer permanent health damage from the first 3 too.

However men escape consequences in all but one of those. If they are pissed they get stuck with that one...then since they know it before they have sex...either dont have sex or accept that*your consequence is that you dont have control over the woman's choices.​

I guess you just dont like the fact that men cannot control her choices? Gee whiz, too bad that she picks the best choice for her own life and that of her family and obligations in life.
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Biological choices do not concern me. Legal options do.

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