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[W: 594] A great question for pro abortion types

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
It is unusual for you to be so closed off in discussion. But, I see you didn't include a 1A = Valuing both equally(Freudian perhaps?). Maybe that is your blind side.
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Did you miss #3? :roll:

You might want to reconsider who you imply is blind :naughty
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

minnie616 said:
I highly doubt Roe will be overturned.

Roe has been revised and reaffirmed ten times.
The latest was 2016 during the Whole Women’s Healthh vs Hellerstedt Case.

When Justice Kavanaugh was interviewed by Congress before he became Confirmed he said that Casey was precedent on precedent.

Let’s review that when Casey V Planned Parenthood was decided and many conservatives were hopeful that Roe would be overturned , it was not overturned. In fact the best the Conservative justices could give their conservative base was the made up undue burden clause.

Which actually came back to bite Texas conservatives a few years ago who tried to pass laws requiring all abortion doctors to have admitting privileges at a nearby hospital.

Look up :Whole woman’s Health v Hellerstedt


From the following:



Landmark Supreme Court Cases | The Casey Case: Roe Revisited?
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Respectfully Minnie, I believe it will be modified, if not overturned by some challenge from the Christian right. I am for some form of modification, but not necessarily complete overturn. I wish that primarily to avoid a path to a partisan Supreme Court.
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Lursa said:
Only *after viability,* not before.

And no healthy viable fetuses are aborted, except perhaps to save the life of the mother.
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Except perhaps??? How forgiving and freely admitted by you of cases of which you are unsure. I never thought you would admit a blind spot. A blind spot that gives others the shivers, but seemingly are not apart of your consideration.

Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Lursa said:
Did you miss #3? :roll:

You might want to reconsider who you imply is blind :naughty
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Perhaps I missed three. I don't visit here for chapter and verse of Lursa. I am more contemporary. I owe you no debt for missing your previous post. If they are salient, post them when you reply. You don't seem to mind being redundant and I don't hold that against you.
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
Except perhaps??? How forgiving and freely admitted by you of cases of which you are unsure. I never thought you would admit a blind spot. A blind spot that gives others the shivers, but seemingly are not apart of your consideration.

Regards,
CP
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I was qualifying a fact. It's pretty simple really. It means that no elective abortions of healthy viable fetuses occur...unless maybe to save the mother.

And I say 'perhaps,' and 'maybe' because many women would choose to risk their lives anyway and have the baby.

Ha ha ha ha ha...ooops, kinda big miss on that one CP :mrgreen:
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
Perhaps I missed three. I don't visit here for chapter and verse of Lursa. I am more contemporary. I owe you no debt for missing your previous post. If they are salient, post them when you reply. You don't seem to mind being redundant and I don't hold that against you.
Regards,
CP
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Cutting and pasting most of my responses does lead to that sometimes...oh well. It's not like you ever answer most questions or arguments directly anyway. Hence the wisdom of the time-saving cut/paste.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Lursa said:
Cutting and pasting most of my responses does lead to that sometimes...oh well. It's not like you ever answer most questions or arguments directly anyway. Hence the wisdom of the time-saving cut/paste.
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You know that is not so. I answer most directly any question you pose to me. I have not noted you as one who asks questions. No. You are most often a predictable zealot That being written; what is your question as to why I oppose a la' carte abortion?
Wisdom of C n' P? where did you find that gem?
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
Respectfully Minnie, I believe it will be modified, if not overturned by some challenge from the Christian right. I am for some form of modification, but not necessarily complete overturn. I wish that primarily to avoid a path to a partisan Supreme Court.
Regards,
CP
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Alabama has abortion laws that are different from Massachusetts. Massachusetts laws are not the same as Vermont laws and so on across the US. Every state is free to establish its own law. Roe v Wade was broadly outlined and the finer points are left up to the states.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
Respectfully Minnie, I believe it will be modified, if not overturned by some challenge from the Christian right. I am for some form of modification, but not necessarily complete overturn. I wish that primarily to avoid a path to a partisan Supreme Court.
Regards,
CP
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The last time I checked the United States was still a secular nation and still believed in Religious Liberty.



Why should the beliefs of the religious right overrule and negate the religious beliefs of the well established Jewish religion that has been around since the early Biblical days ? ( Least we forget that when Jesus Christ was young boy he was raised in a Jewish
Household and was taught the Jewish faith.)

It is well worth noting that Jesus , himself,said not a word about abortion even though it was known to occur during his time.

In fact the Bible itself does not mention one word about or against a woman who aborts her pregnancy.

This was posted by another member of our Debate Politics forum.

Marxistleninist said:
Jewish law does not share the belief common among abortion opponents that life begins at conception, nor does it legally consider the fetus to be a full person deserving of protections equal those accorded to human beings. In Jewish law, a fetus attains the status of a full person only at birth. Sources in the Talmud indicate that prior to 40 days of gestation, the fetus has an even more limited legal status, with one Talmudic authority (Yevamot 69b) asserting that prior to 40 days the fetus is “mere water.” Elsewhere, the Talmud indicates that the ancient rabbis regarded a fetus as part of its mother throughout the pregnancy, dependent fully on her for its life — a view that echoes the position that women should be free to make decisions concerning their own bodies.
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Info From:

Abortion and Judaism | My Jewish Learning

Also included in the article :
The Torah does not address the issue directly. The principal biblical source for Jewish law on abortion is a passage in Exodus (Exodus 21:22-23) concerning a case in which two men are fighting and injure a pregnant woman, causing her to miscarry. The verse states that if no other harm is done, the person who caused the damage must pay compensatory damages, but if there is further harm, then he should pay with his life. The common rabbinic interpretation is that if the only harm that comes to the woman is the loss of the fetus, it is treated as a case of property damage — not murder.

....

Are Jewish groups politically active on the issue of abortion?
Yes. The Reform movement has long been vocal on the issue of legal abortion and reproductive rights. In 1967, before Roe v. Wade made abortion legal nationwide, the movement’s rabbinic association urged the “broad liberalization of abortion laws,” and explicitly mentioned cases of a mother’s endangered mental health and pregnancies resulting from sexual crimes. The movement has reaffirmed that position multiple times over the years, while its Washington advocacy arm has been active in countering efforts to restrict abortion access.
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Abortion and Judaism | My Jewish Learning
 
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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
Except perhaps??? How forgiving and freely admitted by you of cases of which you are unsure. I never thought you would admit a blind spot. A blind spot that gives others the shivers, but seemingly are not apart of your consideration.

Regards,
CP
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Lursa said:
I was qualifying a fact. It's pretty simple really. It means that no elective abortions of healthy viable fetuses occur...unless maybe to save the mother.

And I say 'perhaps,' and 'maybe' because many women would choose to risk their lives anyway and have the baby.

Ha ha ha ha ha...ooops, kinda big miss on that one CP :mrgreen:
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I agree.

It is up to the Pregnant woman and her doctor ( and perhaps her clergy or whomever else she wishes to enter the conversation with) when the woman’s life or irreparable damage to a major bodily function would occur if the pregnancy continued.

In many perhaps most cases the woman will continue a first pregnancy for the sake of the unborn but if she has little ones at home that she knows depend on her being around to love and care for them she may make to the very hard decision of terminating the pregnancy so she can be around to take care if the little ones she already has.


During my first pregnancy I was very ill from pregnancy complications and became very anemic. But my husband and I were looking forward to a little one and I knew if I died during childbirth my husband would love and take care of our little one.

When it came time for delivery I was so anemic my doctor had to the delivery room set up for a complete blood transfusion.( He was afraid I might bleed to death during childbirth)

When they wheeled me into the delivery room I did NOT know if I would live to see my little one or even know if we had a boy or a girl.

We have 4 children who are all grown now and I am so thankful I am now past childbearing years and will never be faced with the very hard decision of choosing between my unborn’s life and being around to care for my born child/ children.
 
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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
You know that is not so. I answer most directly any question you pose to me. I have not noted you as one who asks questions. No. You are most often a predictable zealot That being written; what is your question as to why I oppose a la' carte abortion?
Wisdom of C n' P? where did you find that gem?
Regards,
CP
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That's laughably untrue.. The content of most of your posts consists of passive-aggressive obfuscation.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

minnie616 said:
I agree.

It is up to the Pregnant woman and her doctor ( and perhaps her clergy or whomever else she wishes to enter the conversation with) when the woman’s life or irreparable damage to a major bodily function would occur if the pregnancy continued.

In many perhaps most cases the woman will continue a first pregnancy for the sake of the unborn but if she has little ones at home that she knows depend on her being around to love and care for them she may make to the very hard decision of terminating the pregnancy so she can be around to take care if the little ones she already has.


During my first pregnancy I was very ill from pregnancy complications and became very anemic. But my husband and I were looking forward to a little one and I knew if I died during childbirth my husband would love and take care of our little one.

When it came time for delivery I was so anemic my doctor had to the delivery room set up for a complete blood transfusion.( He was afraid I might bleed to death during childbirth)

When they wheeled me into the delivery room I did NOT know if I would live to see my little one or even know if we had a boy or a girl.

We have 4 children who are all grown now and I am so thankful I am now past childbearing years and will never be faced with the very hard decision of choosing between my unborn’s life and being around to care for my born child/ children.
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Minnie, I think you know by now that I rise and fall to your experience. I admire your courage and that you are able to see the other side of the issue is instructional to me. Perhaps I have been too strident. I agree that there are times when abortion is the best and sometimes only choice. My biggest concern with the issue, in case I haven't expressed it well enough, is that the fetus feel no pain, and that the abortion is performed in a timely fashion. Unless one can tell me when the rights of the unborn are considered, the blank check of women's rights is too far afield for that to be assured. Unlike much of what has been proffered, I do believe in the rights of the unborn. Perhaps those rights aren't expressed in the Constitution. That is only small consideration of becoming human rights.
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Lursa said:
That's laughably untrue.. The content of most of your posts consists of passive-aggressive obfuscation.
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Obfuscation? Yet you still reply to me. Aren't you too confused by said obfuscation? You know where I stand with your presentation. I have made no bones or have I replied in a confusing way. I am not passive aggressive, however I am willing to listen and reply cordially. Maybe you are not used to folks who are nice to you. Only you know that.
To make it oh so clear, I respect your view though I firmly oppose it.
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
Obfuscation? Yet you still reply to me. Aren't you too confused by said obfuscation? You know where I stand with your presentation. I have made no bones or have I replied in a confusing way. I am not passive aggressive, however I am willing to listen and reply cordially. Maybe you are not used to folks who are nice to you. Only you know that.
To make it oh so clear, I respect your view though I firmly oppose it.
Regards,
CP
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I'll let you know if and when you do so...and it'll be obvious when the entertainment value of replying to your posts diminishes.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Lursa said:
I'll let you know if and when you do so...and it'll be obvious when the entertainment value of replying to your posts diminishes.
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I made the mistake of thinking you were here for discussion. If you are looking for entertainment, you might consider cable.
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
Minnie, I think you know by now that I rise and fall to your experience. I admire your courage and that you are able to see the other side of the issue is instructional to me. Perhaps I have been too strident. I agree that there are times when abortion is the best and sometimes only choice. My biggest concern with the issue, in case I haven't expressed it well enough, is that the fetus feel no pain, and that the abortion is performed in a timely fashion. Unless one can tell me when the rights of the unborn are considered, the blank check of women's rights is too far afield for that to be assured. Unlike much of what has been proffered, I do believe in the rights of the unborn. Perhaps those rights aren't expressed in the Constitution. That is only small consideration of becoming human rights.
Regards,
CP
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The unborn feel no pain during an abortion. Before about 26 weeks the neural structure is not developed Enough to feel any pain.

From:
As leading neuroscientist Michael Gazzaniga,
a member of President Bush’s Council on Bioethics, describes in his book The Ethical Brain, current neurology suggests that a fetus doesn’t possess enough neural structure to harbor consciousness
until about 26 weeks, when it first seems to react to pain.

Before that, the fetal neural structure is about as sophisticated as that of a sea slug and its EEG as flat and unorganized as that of someone brain-dead.
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Read more:

The Consciousness Meter: Sure You Want That? | WIRED


By law any fetus past 22 weeks that needs to be aborted is given a painless fatal injection.
 
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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

minnie616 said:
The unborn feel no pain during an abortion. Before about 26 weeks the neural structure is not developed to feel any pain.

From:


Read more:


By law any fetus past 22 weeks that need to be aborted is given a painless fatal injection.
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Minnie; by painless injection you are describing lethal injection like those for First degree murders. Is that an equivalent comparison you embrace? Let me give you your due = You don't feel that way. Maybe you will make a distinction more worthy of you?
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
Minnie; by painless injection you are describing lethal injection like those for First degree murders. Is that an equivalent comparison you embrace? Let me give you your due = You don't feel that way. Maybe you will make a distinction more worthy of you?
Regards,
CP
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Minnie is responding to the concern about fetal pain.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Logical1 said:
You can call and unborn baby any damned thing you want to, fetus or what ever, but it is still a human being with its own DNA. Killing a human being is murder.

I still say there must be a special place in Hell for abortion doctors, right next to Stalin, Hitler, and Mao.
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Killing a human is not always murder. Murder is a legal term. There are many ways to kill a human being, who in fact has already been born, without it being murder.

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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Logical1 said:
The day may come when you have to explain that position. And then beg forgiveness!!!!!!!!!!!!
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As you may have to explain yours to a higher power who really doesnt have the rules you attach to said higher power, but yet you attribute to Him/Her/Other.

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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Logical1 said:
It seems logical to me the fetus (again your description) might think a huge amount of harm has come to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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What makes you think the fetus, unborn has any concept of it's own being, of life and death?

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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
You seem to equate suicide with abortion. Quite honestly I know of no PLANNED SMOKERHOOD fighting for the rights of smokers. If I smoke and get cancer, then that is my fault. If I smoke and can then somehow choose to kill another because I made that dumb choice, that is quite a different thing.
Regards,
CP
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Actually there are groups fighting for the rights of smokers all over the country, given new laws banning smoking to protect nonsmokers. It's called Smokers Rights Groups, ie Smoker Friendly.

And insurance will still pay for treatment if you get lung cancer from smoking. VA/military medical still pays for treatment for various illnesses from smoking.

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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
I agree that today certainly, sex is more than procreation. But, my point stands. It is about the use of body choice and ones own behavior that can result in unwanted pregnancy.
I understand the clear and awful difference between rape and consensual sex> I am not addressing that clear difference, which IMHO is one of few valid exception's.
Regards,
CP
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Sex for humans has almost always been about more than just procreation, since at least written history. Sex can be about power exertion, forming bonds, dominance, and physical activity. It can be ritual or a business proposition. This isn't new either (there is a reason prostitution is referred to as "the oldest profession").

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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:
Exactly! She takes her chances, and get's cancer (or pregnant, as the case may be).
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But smokers can get treatment for their cancer, even get rid of it.

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