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[W: 594] A great question for pro abortion types

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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

minnie616 said:
For each IVF there are usually about 20 surplus ( left over embryos ) that are weeks old. They are often just thrown away or incinerated or left to die.

I posted a link earlier.

Here it is again

The Paradox of the IVF Clinic and the Abortion Clinic: Are Some Embryos More Persons Than Others? - Big Think
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Sorry, Minnie. I did miss that link. I have been moving for the last week or so. I have now visited it. I sort of thought that was what I would find. I am not one who considers the fertilization of the female egg as the beginning of life. I consider it more to be the development of those things that are elemental to a human life.
It is my belief that a being with a heart, a brain, and a nervous system, has the same right to live on this planet, as you or I. I understand the terrible consequences it may have on one who is already alive, but life is just that.
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
Sorry, Minnie. I did miss that link. I have been moving for the last week or so. I have now visited it. I sort of thought that was what I would find. I am not one who considers the fertilization of the female egg as the beginning of life. I consider it more to be the development of those things that are elemental to a human life.
It is my belief that a being with a heart, a brain, and a nervous system, has the same right to live on this planet, as you or I. I understand the terrible consequences it may have on one who is already alive, but life is just that.
Regards,
CP
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A weeks old embryo that is discarded at the IVF treatment centers a potential person just like an aborted embryo had potential.

from the following:

Fertility clinics destroy embryos all the time. Why aren’t conservatives after them?

In contrast, all my husband and I had to do was sign a form. Our competence to choose the outcome of our embryo was never questioned. There were no mandatory lectures on gestation, no requirement that I be explicitly told that personhood begins at conception or that I view a picture of a day-five embryo. There was no compulsory waiting period for me to reconsider my decision.
In fact, no state imposes these restrictions — so common for abortion patients — on patients with frozen embryos. With rare exceptions, the government doesn’t interfere with an IVF patient’s choices except to resolve disagreements between couples.

The disparity between how the law treats abortion patients and IVF patients reveals an ugly truth about abortion restrictions: that they are often less about protecting life than about controlling women’s bodies. Both IVF and abortion involve the destruction of fertilized eggs that could potentially develop into people. But only abortion concerns women who have had sex that they don’t want to lead to childbirth. Abortion restrictions use unwanted pregnancy as a punishment for “irresponsible sex” and remind women of the consequences of being unchaste: If you didn’t want to endure a mandatory vaginal ultrasound , you shouldn’t have had sex in the first place .
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Read more:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...c033e6745d8_story.html?utm_term=.e45b64934857
 
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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

minnie616 said:
A 6 weeks old embryo that is discarded has a heart just like the 6 weeks old embryo that I’d discarded at the IVF treatment center.
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Gosh, Minnie. I honestly don't know what to say. Perhaps science has left me behind. I never took course study that would allow me to parse a human life. I must only conclude with you, and folks like yourself, that I see a pink cheeked, new born, bundle of wonderment and potential when I hear of abortion and I cringe. That may be my shortcoming in the discussion, but I can't help it.
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
Gosh, Minnie. I honestly don't know what to say. Perhaps science has left me behind. I never took course study that would allow me to parse a human life. I must only conclude with you, and folks like yourself, that I see a pink cheeked, new born, bundle of wonderment and potential when I hear of abortion and I cringe. That may be my shortcoming in the discussion, but I can't help it.
Regards,
CP
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CP, it is just that a noisy faction of the pro-life crowd clearly emphatically indicate sacred life starts when sperm hits the egg. They say that IUDs and BCP and morning after pills are abortion inducing. That is what we are up against.

There are outright legal pushes for personhood to attach at the moment the egg is breached by the sperm. That is what we are up against. The discussions about IVF clinics are appropriate to this discussion.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

year2late said:
CP, it is just that a noisy faction of the pro-life crowd clearly emphatically indicate sacred life starts when sperm hits the egg. They say that IUDs and BCP and morning after pills are abortion inducing. That is what we are up against.

There are outright legal pushes for personhood to attach at the moment the egg is breached by the sperm. That is what we are up against. The discussions about IVF clinics are appropriate to this discussion.
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Thank you Y2L. I appreciate your thoughtful reply.

I am not among the sperm+egg=life thinkers. I can't account for that, though their view is certainly as valid as my own. My own view is somewhat emotional. I love babies and their mothers. I understand there are times when the delivery of a child is problematic, but I hope to God, we never resolve to erase viable, true life, for whatever reason. Perhaps I am alone in this. I hope not, but I am adult enough to accept alternate views.
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
Thank you Y2L. I appreciate your thoughtful reply.

I am not among the sperm+egg=life thinkers. I can't account for that, though their view is certainly as valid as my own. My own view is somewhat emotional. I love babies and their mothers. I understand there are times when the delivery of a child is problematic, but I hope to God, we never resolve to erase viable, true life, for whatever reason. Perhaps I am alone in this. I hope not, but I am adult enough to accept alternate views.
Regards,
CP
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Sadly, the rhetoric of the pro-life republicans is very heated and they are attempting to push through alot of legislation that supports such views.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

year2late said:
Sadly, the rhetoric of the pro-life republicans is very heated and they are attempting to push through alot of legislation that supports such views.
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Thank you for your reply.
I know you understand that abortion and the accompanying arguments aren't politically motivated. I'm certain there are people in all party's that are strongly women rights and equally strong opposing pro-life camps. It has been my experience that the abortion issue is party blind. If there is a commonality, it seems almost regional rather than political. Don't you find that to be the case?
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
Thank you for your reply.
I know you understand that abortion and the accompanying arguments aren't politically motivated. I'm certain there are people in all party's that are strongly women rights and equally strong opposing pro-life camps. It has been my experience that the abortion issue is party blind. If there is a commonality, it seems almost regional rather than political. Don't you find that to be the case?
Regards,
CP
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On the contrary.

Abortion is THE political wedge issue for the Republicans. Candidates live and die on this issue for them.

The Republicans lack total pragmatism on this issue. Abortions - whether legal or illegal will occur in large amounts until access to the best and most reliable birth control is financially and physically available to all those who want it. It will occur en masse until long term birth control is developed and available to men that want it.

Currently the most reliable form of contraception - the IUD is financially out of reach to those who are most at risk for abortion - too rich for medicaid, too poor for self pay. An IUD can cost twice the amount of an early abortion. And who wants to cut off financial access and evein physical access to IUD's? Hint, it is not the left.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

year2late said:
On the contrary.

Abortion is THE political wedge issue for the Republicans. Candidates live and die on this issue for them.

The Republicans lack total pragmatism on this issue. Abortions - whether legal or illegal will occur in large amounts until access to the best and most reliable birth control is financially and physically available to all those who want it. It will occur en masse until long term birth control is developed and available to men that want it.

Currently the most reliable form of contraception - the IUD is financially out of reach to those who are most at risk for abortion - too rich for medicaid, too poor for self pay. An IUD can cost twice the amount of an early abortion. And who wants to cut off financial access and evein physical access to IUD's? Hint, it is not the left.
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I must respectfully disagree. I think you would find the question extra-party, certainly south of the Mason/Dixon line, and maybe farther. The question isn't political. It does seem a cheap ploy Dem's would like to use to lasso the otherwise undecided. Politics are, aftercall, politics.It is deeper than politics and doesn't it seem to you, that people vote conscience over party affiliation? I do.
Your point about IUD's is well made. Why hasn't either party embraced the dollar and humanitarian sense that it makes over abortion? There are very, very few who object to prevention of pregnancy. Most are concerned with the ultimate result of a pregnancy, right?
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:
No, it's her responsibility to decide if she will deliver a human, or kill it.
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When a fetus becomes human is subject to lots of debate and generates much more heat than light. From my standpoint the question is irrelevant. You simply cannot force a woman to use her body to support a fetus, whether human or not, anymore than you can force her to donate an organ or take a bullet for someone.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
I must respectfully disagree. I think you would find the question extra-party, certainly south of the Mason/Dixon line, and maybe farther. The question isn't political. It does seem a cheap ploy Dem's would like to use to lasso the otherwise undecided. Politics are, aftercall, politics.It is deeper than politics and doesn't it seem to you, that people vote conscience over party affiliation? I do.
Your point about IUD's is well made. Why hasn't either party embraced the dollar and humanitarian sense that it makes over abortion? There are very, very few who object to prevention of pregnancy. Most are concerned with the ultimate result of a pregnancy, right?
Regards,
CP
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It was the Religious Coaliation for Reproductive Choice that fought hard for years to get prescription birth control medications and devices covered by insurance with no copays and the ACA did adopt the policy they tried so hard to get.

It is the republican party that because of politics that is trying so hard to prevent women who want the long acting Birth control devices not to be able to afford them.

I have stated many times that if both pro choice and pro life advocates worked together we could greatly reduce the numbers of abortions.

Abortions have been lowed quite a bit the last decade thanks to comprehensive sex education and better access to more effective
Birth control.

As I stated on multiple other threads...

Eliminating unwanted pregnancies will make abortion very rare.

Women do not electively abort a wanted pregnancy.
(When a pregnancy is very much wanted they abort if something goes terribly wrong with the pregnancy.)


The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC ) believe in Reproductive Choice. We do not try to force others to believe as we do. We just want Choice to make our own religious decisions regarding Reproduction.

We are pro choice including access to contraception.

We strive to lower the number of abortions through sex education, access to family planning, contraceptives, and adoption services.

While our member organizations are religiously and theologically diverse, they are unified in the commitment to preserve reproductive choice as a basic part of religious liberty.

Our rational, healing perspective looks beyond the bitter abortion debate to seek solutions to pressing problems such as unintended pregnancy, the spread of HIV/AIDS, inadequate health care and health insurance, and the severe reduction in reproductive health care services.

We support access to sex education, family planning and contraception, affordable child care and health care, and adoption services as well as safe, legal, abortion services, regardless of income. As an organization committed to reproductive justice, we work for public policies that ensure the medical, economic, and educational resources necessary for healthy families and communities that are equipped to nurture children in peace and love.
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From RCRC Healthy Reproductive Service’s
 
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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Anti choice laws are a threat to my religious freedom as a Jew … because according to classical Jewish text and most rabbinic interpreters, a developing embryo or fetus is not ‘an unborn child’ or ‘person,’ but has the legal status of an appendage of the pregnant woman. It is part of her body, not a separate person, until the moment that a majority of a viable baby capable of independent life has been born.”
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

minnie616 said:
I have stated many times that if both pro choice and pro life advocates worked together we could greatly reduce the numbers of abortions.
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This cannot be stated enough.

Most prochoicers I know personally are personally against abortion.

Rather than yelling kicking and screaming "murderers" at prochoicers, they could be pragmatic about how to logically decrease rates of abortion.

But instead the ego driven cries of "murderers" prevail.:(

How do you PRAGMATICALLY achieve much lower rates of abortion? Figure out what group of people are getting the most (those women that are too rich for medicaid, too poor for insurance- the working poor) and help the access the best and most reliable birth control. Currently that is IUDs and implantables which can cost about 900 bucks - about twice the cost of an early abortion.

Also, turning an unwanted pregnancy into a wanted one is possible. But that would involve helping a woman feel secure that she would be housing/health secure that would be achieved by a decent job with benefits. Not so easy depending on the woman's skill set.

What does not work?

Slut shaming
Calls for a woman to take an aspirin "between her knees"
Closing Planned Parenthood that supplies women with health care screeings and birth control (etc)
Finger wagging.
Chastity Pledges
Lining the SCOTUS with pro-life judges.
Threats of eternal hell.


Pragmatism people.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

year2late said:
How do you PRAGMATICALLY achieve much lower rates of abortion? Figure out what group of people are getting the most (those women that are too rich for medicaid, too poor for insurance- the working poor) and help the access the best and most reliable birth control. Currently that is IUDs and implantables which can cost about 900 bucks - about twice the cost of an early abortion.
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I see so many anti choicers yell "not my tax dollars!" about helping low income women with things like contraception. I'm a fiscal conservative and it's so much cheaper to pay for b/c than to pay the costs of not paying for it. I'd much rather fund that than not fund it and have to pay for welfare for the woman and her child(ren).

Ditto for the cost of prenatal medical care - not paying for that could cost more in the long run.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Scrabaholic said:
I see so many anti choicers yell "not my tax dollars!"
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Because the they are way too stupid to grasp the fact that it is not their money it is the government's money and it is spend the way our elected officials see fit for the benefit of the nation.


about helping low income women with things like contraception. I'm a fiscal conservative and it's so much cheaper to pay for b/c than to pay the costs of not paying for it.
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Then again, being a rational intelligent person allows for you to see such realities.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

minnie616 said:
It was the Religious Coaliation for Reproductive Choice that fought hard for years to get prescription birth control medications and devices covered by insurance with no copays and the ACA did adopt the policy they tried so hard to get.

It is the republican party that because of politics that is trying so hard to prevent women who want the long acting Birth control devices not to be able to afford them.

I have stated many times that if both pro choice and pro life advocates worked together we could greatly reduce the numbers of abortions.

Abortions have been lowed quite a bit the last decade thanks to comprehensive sex education and better access to more effective
Birth control.

As I stated on multiple other threads...

Eliminating unwanted pregnancies will make abortion very rare.

Women do not electively abort a wanted pregnancy.
(When a pregnancy is very much wanted they abort if something goes terribly wrong with the pregnancy.)


The Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC ) believe in Reproductive Choice. We do not try to force others to believe as we do. We just want Choice to make our own religious decisions regarding Reproduction.

We are pro choice including access to contraception.

We strive to lower the number of abortions through sex education, access to family planning, contraceptives, and adoption services.




From RCRC Healthy Reproductive Service’s
Click to expand...

I have no argument with the gist of your post, but I am certain you are incorrect to believe that only Republicans are anti-abortion. I am sure that there are many Democrats that are anti-abortion, just as there are Republicans that are pro-choice. That is why I object to the tarring of the Republican party. I'm sure you understand there are issues other than abortion that influence voters of both parties.
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
I have no argument with the gist of your post, but I am certain you are incorrect to believe that only Republicans are anti-abortion. I am sure that there are many Democrats that are anti-abortion, just as there are Republicans that are pro-choice. That is why I object to the tarring of the Republican party. I'm sure you understand there are issues other than abortion that influence voters of both parties.
Regards,
CP
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I’m am sorry.

I am not saying only republicans are anti abortion.

I was making a statement that the Republican party is voting to take away prescription birth control insurance.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

minnie616 said:
I’m am sorry.

I am not saying only republicans are anti abortion.

I was making a statement that the Republican party is voting to take away prescription birth control insurance.
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I thought I had replied earlier, but I must have some button wrong.:)
I am a Republican and disagree strongly with removing any supplement that would deny birth control to any seeking it. Quite honestly, that is the best and least intrusive way of averting abortion. Again, I believe that reasoning crosses party lines. Some things are bigger than party affiliation.

I must add here; you are a pleasure to correspond with. I much appreciate that your writing is clearly not snarky or dismissive. It is more that you want to discuss, but not dictate. Thank you for that.

Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
I thought I had replied earlier, but I must have some button wrong.:)
I am a Republican and disagree strongly with removing any supplement that would deny birth control to any seeking it. Quite honestly, that is the best and least intrusive way of averting abortion. Again, I believe that reasoning crosses party lines. Some things are bigger than party affiliation.

I must add here; you are a pleasure to correspond with. I much appreciate that your writing is clearly not snarky or dismissive. It is more that you want to discuss, but not dictate. Thank you for that.

Regards,
CP
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I agree. Some things are bigger than party affiliation.

It was just very frustrating after finally getting prescription birth control to be covered by insurance with no co pay to see Republicans in Congress trying to undo it.

Once long term birth control was covered by insurance the percentage of use went up.

Before the ACA or those who do have insurance had to pay $800 to $1000 up front for it.

ETA.

From

Among U.S. women aged 15 to 44, the use of these long-term but reversibl contraceptives
rose from 1.5 percent in 2002 to 7.2 percent in 2011-2013, says the report from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
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Use of Long-Acting Birth Control Rises Fivefold in a Decade: CDC – WebMD

And from a 2018 article

The report found that the most common contraceptive methods women use are female sterilization at 18.6 percent and the pill at 12.6 percent followed by long-acting reversible contraceptives (LARCs), which includes implants and intrauterine devices (IUDs),
at 10.3 percent,
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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Sorry to late to edit my previous post.

Here is the link to my previous posted 2018 article.

The report found that the most common contraceptive methods women use are female sterilization at 18.6 percent and the pill at 12.6 percent followed by long-acting reversible contraceptives (LARCs), which includes implants and intrauterine devices (IUDs), at 10.3 percent,
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Almost Two-Thirds of Women in the U.S. Use Some Form of Birth Control | SELF
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
I thought I had replied earlier, but I must have some button wrong.:)
I am a Republican and disagree strongly with removing any supplement that would deny birth control to any seeking it. Quite honestly, that is the best and least intrusive way of averting abortion. Again, I believe that reasoning crosses party lines. Some things are bigger than party affiliation.

I must add here; you are a pleasure to correspond with. I much appreciate that your writing is clearly not snarky or dismissive. It is more that you want to discuss, but not dictate. Thank you for that.

Regards,
CP
Click to expand...

I agree.

I blather on alot about pragmatic ways of decreasing abortion rates.

The best contraception for women are the long term forms (implantables and IUDs). But they are cost prohibitive for those most at risk for abortion (too rich for medicaid, too poor for the huge price tag.) To those who truly belive that abortion is murder, this solution should be a no brainer.:(
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

year2late said:
I agree.

I blather on alot about pragmatic ways of decreasing abortion rates.

The best contraception for women are the long term forms (implantables and IUDs). But they are cost prohibitive for those most at risk for abortion (too rich for medicaid, too poor for the huge price tag.) To those who truly belive that abortion is murder, this solution should be a no brainer.:(
Click to expand...

Thank you for your considered reply.
I agree with birth control most emphatically! I am Conservative, but not stone age so. My wife and I practiced it until we were ready. I too can't truly side with anyone who is against preventing accidents. Traffic, reproduction, job safety, or other. I just don't understand that arm of some who wrap themselves in the Conservative brand. Though I respect and consider the view of all, I guess I just don't agree, to that degree.
Regards,
CP
 
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