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[W: 594] A great question for pro abortion types

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

If you mean religious feelings with spiritual than yes, I am even more than exempt I am devoid of spiritual feelings. And what does morality have to do with spirituality?

And I disagree with all religions? Is that anti-islamic? Why would I want to make a specific statement regarding that? I don't believe allah, jahweh or god exists, just like I don't believe Moses, Jesus, Mohammed and any other prophet from the biblical times exists. Is that anti-islamic enough? And anti-christian and anti-jewish?

And being an atheist is a personal view on the truth, most atheists only fight for their right to think that way. We are not the religious zealots who think they have to attack another religion so that they can expose them to the only true god and prophet.

Also, what again does this really have to do with abortion?

Sorry, Pete. I did get off the thread a bit. Unless you will give me the bye of, as a Christian, believing in the sanctity of live.
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Sorry, Pete. I did get off the thread a bit. Unless you will give me the bye of, as a Christian, believing in the sanctity of live.

Regards,
CP

Look, I have no issue with a christian believing in the sanctity of life as long as you make that decision for yourself. Now you can offer advise and an opinion but that is as far as someone's interference with the personal medical decisions a woman makes for herself regarding choosing or not choosing abortion should go.

This is about personal choice, personal responsibility and a choice we as a society can make so that women do not need to make the decision about abortion. Like better health care (pre and post natal care) for mother and child, guaranteed vacation days, parental leave system, good education that is affordable, a child benefit per child (quarterly for example), free food at school so that every child is able to get a hot meal at school and if needed a breakfast, better availability of birth control, stop the purity system/abstaining sex talk at school, every woman who is raped gets plan b withing the time frame it can be given, open up adoption to single parents and gay parents, incentivize women being able to have a child and have a career by after school programs and good and affordable day care places, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

It may cost money and taxes might have to go up especially for business but they will profit from it too so I do not see it as an issue. Try positively trying to prevent pregnancy and if it is not preventable make the choice for a woman to keep the child an easier one to make.

But in the end, it is a woman's right to choose and if she does not think a 6 week embryo is "life" or even if she thinks it is life, it is still up to her and her conscience to make that decision without government interference or aggressive pro-life thugs trying to scare women away from abortion clinics.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Look, I have no issue with a christian believing in the sanctity of life as long as you make that decision for yourself. Now you can offer advise and an opinion but that is as far as someone's interference with the personal medical decisions a woman makes for herself regarding choosing or not choosing abortion should go.

This is about personal choice, personal responsibility and a choice we as a society can make so that women do not need to make the decision about abortion. Like better health care (pre and post natal care) for mother and child, guaranteed vacation days, parental leave system, good education that is affordable, a child benefit per child (quarterly for example), free food at school so that every child is able to get a hot meal at school and if needed a breakfast, better availability of birth control, stop the purity system/abstaining sex talk at school, every woman who is raped gets plan b withing the time frame it can be given, open up adoption to single parents and gay parents, incentivize women being able to have a child and have a career by after school programs and good and affordable day care places, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

It may cost money and taxes might have to go up especially for business but they will profit from it too so I do not see it as an issue. Try positively trying to prevent pregnancy and if it is not preventable make the choice for a woman to keep the child an easier one to make.

But in the end, it is a woman's right to choose and if she does not think a 6 week embryo is "life" or even if she thinks it is life, it is still up to her and her conscience to make that decision without government interference or aggressive pro-life thugs trying to scare women away from abortion clinics.

Pete, my reasonable friend, I agree with much of what you have written. I would remind you that your reasoning does not so much match pro-abortion argument today. If you and I can agree that 6 weeks is the drop dead date(sorry for the terrible wording. It was what came to me, though a better wording may be apropos) we are in most ways, in agreement.

Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

The question is-----------if the baby aborted is not human, why are organs being harvested from them. That doesnt seem to compute.

Any logical comments?

For starters its not pro abortion but pro choice. Just like pro life should really be pro fetus as once the child is born they really could give a crap at that point.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

For starters its not pro abortion but pro choice. Just like pro life should really be pro fetus as once the child is born they really could give a crap at that point.

What wonderful divining rod you must possess! You, as Lord on High, have decreed that there is some sliver of difference between pro-abortion and pro-life! Do you fancy yourself as having been less trouble, or less life altering than any aborted baby today? Like everyone else alive today, you weren't. I agree that it may be a matter of choice, but when does the baby choose?
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Pete, my reasonable friend, I agree with much of what you have written. I would remind you that your reasoning does not so much match pro-abortion argument today. If you and I can agree that 6 weeks is the drop dead date(sorry for the terrible wording. It was what came to me, though a better wording may be apropos) we are in most ways, in agreement.

Regards,
CP

6 weeks is impossible, most women do not know they are pregnant then yet. And even if they do know, the size of the embryo is about 5mm in size, the size of a lentil. And even then, it is a personal choice that should be limited if necessary to prevent misuse of the elective abortion situation, maybe 16 weeks would be an appropriate date, far before the brain starts working properly. Because at week 16 the fetus gets a growth spurt. But most abortions have happened by then.

66 percent of abortions take place between conception and the size of the embryo being the size of a kidney bean, weighing just one gram and 1.6 centimeters.

By the time the fetus is the size of an olive, weight 4 grams and size 3.1 centimeter 80.5% of all abortions have taken place (week 10)

By the time the fetus is the size of a lime, weight 14 grams, length 5.4 centimeters, 88.8% of all abortions have taken place (week 12).

By the time week 15 comes around, just past the first trimester ends, about 95% of all abortions have taken place. The fetus is now the size of an apple and weighs about 70 grams. At this moment the first birth defects have been detected in the week 13 to 15. Part of the abortions are taking possibly place because of already detected birth defects from scans and dna testing.

Your view of 6 weeks is unworkable, by the time week 8 comes around 2/3 of abortions have already taken place. Those are the facts. An agreement can only work if it is reasonable and 6 weeks is just not reasonable. Women have the right to choose. Most will chose to have their child, the minority of women will decide to have an abortion. Most will not even have to undergo a surgical procedure. Until week 10 most women can have a medical abortion (with pills rather than a surgical intervention).

An agreement can only work if it does not interfere with the right of women to choose. As said before, make choosing life more appealing rather than violating a woman's right to choose.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

What wonderful divining rod you must possess! You, as Lord on High, have decreed that there is some sliver of difference between pro-abortion and pro-life! Do you fancy yourself as having been less trouble, or less life altering than any aborted baby today? Like everyone else alive today, you weren't. I agree that it may be a matter of choice, but when does the baby choose?
Regards,
CP

1. it is pro-choice, we have no idea nor do we care what a woman chooses just as long as it is HER choice.

2. being pro-choice does not mean that you would ever want to undergo an abortion yourself. You just don't think you have the right to make that choice for other people, hence the term, pro-choice.

3. And baby's do not get aborted. It is physically impossible to abort a baby. Abortion prevents there ever being a baby.

4. and just with parental rights, this is about a woman's right to choose, a ZEF has no say in the matter, just like the state (within reason) or the father (totally no say whatsoever until birth).
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

6 weeks is impossible, most women do not know they are pregnant then yet. And even if they do know, the size of the embryo is about 5mm in size, the size of a lentil. And even then, it is a personal choice that should be limited if necessary to prevent misuse of the elective abortion situation, maybe 16 weeks would be an appropriate date, far before the brain starts working properly. Because at week 16 the fetus gets a growth spurt. But most abortions have happened by then.

66 percent of abortions take place between conception and the size of the embryo being the size of a kidney bean, weighing just one gram and 1.6 centimeters.

By the time the fetus is the size of an olive, weight 4 grams and size 3.1 centimeter 80.5% of all abortions have taken place (week 10)

By the time the fetus is the size of a lime, weight 14 grams, length 5.4 centimeters, 88.8% of all abortions have taken place (week 12).

By the time week 15 comes around, just past the first trimester ends, about 95% of all abortions have taken place. The fetus is now the size of an apple and weighs about 70 grams. At this moment the first birth defects have been detected in the week 13 to 15. Part of the abortions are taking possibly place because of already detected birth defects from scans and dna testing.

Your view of 6 weeks is unworkable, by the time week 8 comes around 2/3 of abortions have already taken place. Those are the facts. An agreement can only work if it is reasonable and 6 weeks is just not reasonable. Women have the right to choose. Most will chose to have their child, the minority of women will decide to have an abortion. Most will not even have to undergo a surgical procedure. Until week 10 most women can have a medical abortion (with pills rather than a surgical intervention).

An agreement can only work if it does not interfere with the right of women to choose. As said before, make choosing life more appealing rather than violating a woman's right to choose.

I believe you broached the six weeks decision in your earlier post, That is to what I agreed. See Below:
But in the end, it is a woman's right to choose and if she does not think a 6 week embryo is "life" or even if she thinks it is life, it is still up to her and her conscience to make that decision without government interference or aggressive pro-life thugs trying to scare women away from abortion clinics.
..or am I mistaken?
In any event, do you not see the danger of allowing one to decide another is unworthy, or no longer worthy of life? Aren't many of those decisions grounds for a charge of murder? What then is the alternative charge for one taking another's life? In most civilized countries it is called murder. Where are you from, and what do you call it?
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

I believe you broached the six weeks decision in your earlier post, That is to what I agreed. See Below:
But in the end, it is a woman's right to choose and if she does not think a 6 week embryo is "life" or even if she thinks it is life, it is still up to her and her conscience to make that decision without government interference or aggressive pro-life thugs trying to scare women away from abortion clinics.
..or am I mistaken?
In any event, do you not see the danger of allowing one to decide another is unworthy, or no longer worthy of life? Aren't many of those decisions grounds for a charge of murder? What then is the alternative charge for one taking another's life? In most civilized countries it is called murder. Where are you from, and what do you call it?
Regards,
CP


1. my mentioning of 6 weeks had nothing to do with the number of weeks to what I think elective abortion should be 100% the choice of women

2. it is not deciding about another life, it is deciding about your life and your pregnancy

3. it has nothing to do with how worthy a life is, it is a ZEF, incapable of sustaining even a modicum of life and it is the woman's right to choose what she wants to do, not ours.

4. and no, you cannot murder what does not exist, it has nothing to do with murder whatsoever

5. there is not another life. There is one life, the mother's life during the time frame elective abortions are legal.

6. again, this has nothing to do with murder, at least not in civilized countries, in backward countries maybe but why should we live and decide by that standard.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

The question is-----------if the baby aborted is not human, why are organs being harvested from them. That doesnt seem to compute.

Any logical comments?

Nobody argues a fetus is not genetically 'human'.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

another completely ridiculous and illogical thread by user Logical1. please petition mods to change your name to Illogical1, please.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

1. my mentioning of 6 weeks had nothing to do with the number of weeks to what I think elective abortion should be 100% the choice of women

2. it is not deciding about another life, it is deciding about your life and your pregnancy

3. it has nothing to do with how worthy a life is, it is a ZEF, incapable of sustaining even a modicum of life and it is the woman's right to choose what she wants to do, not ours.

4. and no, you cannot murder what does not exist, it has nothing to do with murder whatsoever

5. there is not another life. There is one life, the mother's life during the time frame elective abortions are legal.

6. again, this has nothing to do with murder, at least not in civilized countries, in backward countries maybe but why should we live and decide by that standard.

I apologize in advance for stating your recent writing is an evil brew of a convoluted idea of life. It is clear that we disagree, but I will sleep better knowing I put forward my thoughts to you about saving the unborn, over the rights of an adult who didn't know how pregnancy happens and who might spend a couple of bucks a month to prevent same.

Regards
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

I apologize in advance for stating your recent writing is an evil brew of a convoluted idea of life. It is clear that we disagree, but I will sleep better knowing I put forward my thoughts to you about saving the unborn, over the rights of an adult who didn't know how pregnancy happens and who might spend a couple of bucks a month to prevent same.

Regards
CP

Except that is your personal opinion about what "life is". You want others to agree to your description of it and act accordingly but stopping abortions.

And I love saving the unborn, but not at the expense of the only person in this issue, the woman.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Except that is your personal opinion about what "life is". You want others to agree to your description of it and act accordingly but stopping abortions.

And I love saving the unborn, but not at the expense of the only person in this issue, the woman.

I will gladly consider what your own view of when/what life is. Without considering the vessel, what is it? When were you life?
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

I will gladly consider what your own view of when/what life is. Without considering the vessel, what is it? When were you life?
Regards,
CP

I don't know if you're intentionally ignoring what he's saying or if you've just missed it the 2+ times he's said it - it's not about when the fetus is "life", it's about when you could say that it has rights of it's own. Surely, up to 16-20 weeks, it's not anything remotely close enough to a "baby" to have rights. It doesn't feel pain, it can't think, it's just a parasite growing inside a woman - and that woman DOES have rights. Bodily autonomy is one of the most fundamental aspects of human rights.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

I will gladly consider what your own view of when/what life is. Without considering the vessel, what is it? When were you life?
Regards,
CP

Later in the pregnancy, a few weeks before viability, when the brain starts working with regard to higher brain functions. And one cannot discuss this issue without regarding/considering the woman it is in.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

I don't know if you're intentionally ignoring what he's saying or if you've just missed it the 2+ times he's said it - it's not about when the fetus is "life", it's about when you could say that it has rights of it's own. Surely, up to 16-20 weeks, it's not anything remotely close enough to a "baby" to have rights. It doesn't feel pain, it can't think, it's just a parasite growing inside a woman - and that woman DOES have rights. Bodily autonomy is one of the most fundamental aspects of human rights.

I certainly don't mean to tax anyone. If I have missed previous replies, it wasn't out of disrespect. I just don't read every post, in every thread. Speed reading error, okay. If that hurt anyone, I hereby apologize.
To your point: Parasite? Are you then redefining a fetus as a parasite? You live on the Earth and are neither life self energizing or independent of others. Are you then a parasite? Yes, you are. We are all are parasites. How does that diminish the life of the unborn?
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

I certainly don't mean to tax anyone. If I have missed previous replies, it wasn't out of disrespect. I just don't read every post, in every thread. Speed reading error, okay. If that hurt anyone, I hereby apologize.
To your point: Parasite? Are you then redefining a fetus as a parasite? You live on the Earth and are neither life self energizing or independent of others. Are you then a parasite? Yes, you are. We are all are parasites. How does that diminish the life of the unborn?
Regards,
CP

Yes, a fetus is a parasite, almost literally by definition.

1.
an organism that lives in or on an organism of another species (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense.

I don't know about you, but I don't consider the Earth to literally be a living thing. Rocks and magma and the iron core are not conscious, living beings. We survive off of plant life (food / oxygen) and other animals, like ourselves, who also survive off of the same things. The idea of a "Mother Earth" is to do with the natural processes in our world. In that sense, yes, we would all be parasites - however again, we don't grant the same status as a living being to "Mother Earth". It has no choice about what it does or how it acts. It just is.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

C
Later in the pregnancy, a few weeks before viability, when the brain starts working with regard to higher brain functions. And one cannot discuss this issue without regarding/considering the woman it is in.

I believe I mentioned earlier my respect for your view. If not, my error, I do so now.
I am uncomfortable with your malleable idea of a few weeks . Further, why can't the subject be considered without the input of the vessel(woman)? She isn't the one who will die. Society has interest in the successful delivery of children. You certainly know that.
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

A fetus is the species homo sapien. Whether "human" is another question.

If a person is truly brain dead but machines keeping the body going as the bones literally slowly dissolve away until the family agrees to cut off water and nutrition, did the family members and medical staff murder a human and be convicted of 1st degree pre-meditated murder?
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Even the best possible birth control has a failure rate.

Very few unwanted pregnancies are from birth control failure.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Yes, a fetus is a parasite, almost literally by definition.

1.
an organism that lives in or on an organism of another species (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the other's expense.

I don't know about you, but I don't consider the Earth to literally be a living thing. Rocks and magma and the iron core are not conscious, living beings. We survive off of plant life (food / oxygen) and other animals, like ourselves, who also survive off of the same things. The idea of a "Mother Earth" is to do with the natural processes in our world. In that sense, yes, we would all be parasites - however again, we don't grant the same status as a living being to "Mother Earth". It has no choice about what it does or how it acts. It just is.

Hmmm. You have described all Human beings, not only a human fetus. Even the most base wouldn't agree with you that a fetus is of another species. That you somehow equate magma and a human fetus make me wonder if you really don't understand the difference, or are just that jaded.
Bye the bye, who, what exactly, is Mother Earth? Do you mean the planet? You get that, but don't seem to understand that all human's have to offer is more of us.
Regards,
CP
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

A fetus is the species homo sapien. Whether "human" is another question.

Scientifically there is absolutely no question whatsoever that the immediate product of fertilisation is a newly existing human being. A human zygote is a human being. It is not a "potential" or a "possible" human being. It is an actual human being with the potential to grow bigger and develop its capacities.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Hmmm. You have described all Human beings, not only a human fetus. Even the most base wouldn't agree with you that a fetus is of another species. That you somehow equate magma and a human fetus make me wonder if you really don't understand the difference, or are just that jaded.
Bye the bye, who, what exactly, is Mother Earth? Do you mean the planet? You get that, but don't seem to understand that all human's have to offer is more of us.
Regards,
CP


You need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills before you try to interact with others on the Internet.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

C

I believe I mentioned earlier my respect for your view. If not, my error, I do so now.
I am uncomfortable with your malleable idea of a few weeks . Further, why can't the subject be considered without the input of the vessel(woman)? She isn't the one who will die. Society has interest in the successful delivery of children. You certainly know that.
Regards,
CP

Well one cannot discuss it without the "vessel" as you so weirdly call it because it is HER body we are talking about. It is her life, her health, her future and her choice that we are talking about. And it is not malleable, I just take a few weeks of margin of error. The higher brain functions start developing in the womb between 21 and 23 weeks if I am not mistaken and I take a few weeks margin of error and then I get between week 18 and 20 when elective abortions really should not be allowed anymore.

Because to me sentience and brain function matter much more than DNA or other developments of the fetus. It is our higher functioning brain that differentiates us from animals, it is that which makes humans so successful and when our brain functions die out, our being ends with it, even if our body is being kept alive.

And society has an interest in children that are wanted. We already over populate the planet, we no longer need to have that many children to keep our population going because people are getting older (healthier) and because child death has really dropped off a lot.
 
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