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Thread: [W: 594] A great question for pro abortion types

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    Re: A great question for pro abortion types

    Quote Originally Posted by D_NATURED View Post
    Choice is choice and mandates are mandates, it doesn't matter whether it's abortion or diet that we discuss. There are certainly some people who would favor taking away our choice to eat meat, too. I support choice in both areas.

    As for the conservatives and the spectrum of crazy with regard to fetal advocacy, the trend is not for Republican state houses to make "capricious" abortions illegal, they go right for the heartbeat. Besides, the problem with the word "capricious" is that ALL pregnancies are, potentially, harmful or fatal to the woman who endures it. Therefore, I consider it reasonable to leave them that choice absolutely. There is no such thing as a capricious defense of one's self or life.

    BTW, when authoritarians use the imaginary authority of god to propose subjugating women, they are violating both the constitution and the very idea of rational civil law. If you subtract the anti-choice people who are so inclined as a function of their faith, there would be very little serious opposition to the reproductive freedom of women.
    First, I agree with your last statement. God and politicians are water and oil.
    As to the rest, you seem to make a connection with pregnancy and mortality. Pregnancy in main is not lethal. Certainly, there have been sad cases where it was, but to make a case for abortion for convenience is to use those occasions in a particularly cruel way.
    Finally, after boiling down your reply, I have to wonder; are you making the assertion that pregnancy is a means to subjugate women?
    Regards,
    CP

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    Re: A great question for pro abortion types

    Quote Originally Posted by concernedpuma View Post
    Of course I understood the attempt at analogy. If you noted, that was my objection. As analogy, to mean anything must be like/same comparison. I don't find diet and reproduction to be even remotely associated, as defined by this discussion.

    The terms capricious and legitimate cause abortion are problematic to this point, merely because the haven't been codified. A law protecting the unborn and mother from same will not be problematic.
    Regards,
    CP
    Unfortunately you do not seem to understand the comparison. For the analogy to work there does not have to be any association between diets and abortion. It is the reasoning that must be the similar which in that particular analogy it was.

    Again you miss the point. The terms legitimate or capricious can only be defined by the woman who is pregnant. It is her right to decide what happens to her body. The law has no real business making that decision for her.

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    Re: A great question for pro abortion types

    Quote Originally Posted by concernedpuma View Post
    First, I agree with your last statement. God and politicians are water and oil.
    As to the rest, you seem to make a connection with pregnancy and mortality. Pregnancy in main is not lethal.
    I've known two different women who died unexpectedly in childbirth. All pregnancies are potentially lethal and, as such, I yield to the wishes of women whether it's a risk they'll take or not. The loss of a woman, with a name, a history, a personality, with human connections, including existing children, is a greater loss than any fetus.

    It seems an absurd contradiction to allow men to use lethal force in defense of their property but to deny women the right to stand their ground in defense of their very lives and health.

    Certainly, there have been sad cases where it was, but to make a case for abortion for convenience is to use those occasions in a particularly cruel way.
    Abortion isn't cruelty, it's a medical procedure. Even when women survive birth, they are often permanently harmed by it. Calling self preservation "convenience" is to soft-sell the risks. When men intentionally ignore the cost to women, there is an implied agenda there that I can't ignore.

    Finally, after boiling down your reply, I have to wonder; are you making the assertion that pregnancy is a means to subjugate women?
    No, but abortion restrictions are. Clearly, the laws being proposed are, largely, done by christian men, whose faith is notoriously misogynist. Telling women they don't have the right to decide who or what may use their bodily resources and, in so doing, potentially kill them, is a shamelessly obvious subjugation. I hope you understand that.

    I like babies as much as the next guy but I can't separate babies from women, in any way. It is only by the sacrifices of women that any of us exist and, without women, humankind would fade out of existence. It's too bad that they must exist in a Male-created binary paradigm of mother or whore. That we can't celebrate them absent their reproductive value to men is a sad commentary on the patriarchy that continues to resonate through our culture. Abortion laws are thinly veiled misogyny pretending to be the love of babies. NOBODY loves babies better than women do. If we loved women as much, abortions really would be rare.

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    Re: A great question for pro abortion types

    I do not care if the fetus is human or not. I am neither pro life nor am I pro choice. I am pro abortion because I want to reduce the human population, and because abortion has beneficial eugenic effects. That is the reason I am in favor of the frequent use of capital punishment and a much larger number of long prison sentences at hard labor enforced by the whip.

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    Re: A great question for pro abortion types

    You are right. I excuse and dismiss as cavalier your comparison, that you generously call an analogy. This is the last I will write on that unfortunate attempt.
    The terms capricious and legitimate are not sexually assigned. Abortion is no more confined by sex than murder, bank robbery, or drug sales. That women are the vessel of the unborn doesn't give them the sole right to decide life and death of the unborn. Society and the male partner have a legitimate interest in that. From thereby all of our laws flow. Abortion seems to be the only issue that is given to a sex for decision as opposed to the overall well being of the world.
    All that being said, pregnancy is a mutual state of being. To allow males a free skate is wrong. What other state of situation doesn't consider accomplice responsibilities?!?!?!
    Regards,
    CP

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    Re: A great question for pro abortion types

    Quote Originally Posted by SmartCat View Post
    I do not care if the fetus is human or not. I am neither pro life nor am I pro choice. I am pro abortion because I want to reduce the human population, and because abortion has beneficial eugenic effects. That is the reason I am in favor of the frequent use of capital punishment and a much larger number of long prison sentences at hard labor enforced by the whip.
    What a coincidence! I heard just the other day that if smart cats would [I]check out[I] there would be more parking spaces. Seems to make sense, using your reasoning.
    Regards,
    CP

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    Re: A great question for pro abortion types

    Quote Originally Posted by D_NATURED View Post
    I've known two different women who died unexpectedly in childbirth. All pregnancies are potentially lethal and, as such, I yield to the wishes of women whether it's a risk they'll take or not. The loss of a woman, with a name, a history, a personality, with human connections, including existing children, is a greater loss than any fetus.

    It seems an absurd contradiction to allow men to use lethal force in defense of their property but to deny women the right to stand their ground in defense of their very lives and health.



    Abortion isn't cruelty, it's a medical procedure. Even when women survive birth, they are often permanently harmed by it. Calling self preservation "convenience" is to soft-sell the risks. When men intentionally ignore the cost to women, there is an implied agenda there that I can't ignore.



    No, but abortion restrictions are. Clearly, the laws being proposed are, largely, done by christian men, whose faith is notoriously misogynist. Telling women they don't have the right to decide who or what may use their bodily resources and, in so doing, potentially kill them, is a shamelessly obvious subjugation. I hope you understand that.

    I like babies as much as the next guy but I can't separate babies from women, in any way. It is only by the sacrifices of women that any of us exist and, without women, humankind would fade out of existence. It's too bad that they must exist in a Male-created binary paradigm of mother or whore. That we can't celebrate them absent their reproductive value to men is a sad commentary on the patriarchy that continues to resonate through our culture. Abortion laws are thinly veiled misogyny pretending to be the love of babies. NOBODY loves babies better than women do. If we loved women as much, abortions really would be rare.
    To your first point, God rest any who died in childbirth. I mean that
    To the larger exploration of that: to correlate the death of a mother with child birth as a preventable disease is to use singular tragedy to make a point in discussion.
    Certainly, you are not proud of that.
    Regards,
    CP

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    Re: A great question for pro abortion types

    Quote Originally Posted by concernedpuma View Post
    That women are the vessel of the unborn doesn't give them the sole right to decide life and death of the unborn.
    Yes it does. Legally and IMO morally. Since you disagree, by who's authority are you claiming this? The Constitution protecting women's rights of bodily sovereignty, self-determination, due process, and privacy (reproductive/familial/medical) all protect this sole right.

    So...are you saying there is some other authority that should be forcing women to remain pregnant against our will? If so, which one? That is the only other option...either elective abortion is legal or it's not. And if it's not...then pregant women must be identified, tracked, controlled to protect the life of the unborn, and punished if they dont.

    So...which authority are you claiming says that women do not have sole right to decide life and death of the unborn?

    Society and the male partner have a legitimate interest in that. From thereby all of our laws flow. Abortion seems to be the only issue that is given to a sex for decision as opposed to the overall well being of the world.
    The male that contributed the sperm does have an interest...but his interest does not override the rights, health, and physical sacrifices that women invest in pregnancy & childbirth. Unless you are suggesting that men be granted the right to demand that women remain pregnant against our will? Otherwise, we can all hope that a couple decides together but no law can make that fair.

    Since you mention society...I find that a bit odd since abortion has no negative effects on society. If it does, please list some for me?
    Quote Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
    This seems less like palliative care and more like a last meal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    Parrots of the Caribbean For Abortion!
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: A great question for pro abortion types

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Yes it does. Legally and IMO morally. Since you disagree, by who's authority are you claiming this? The Constitution protecting women's rights of bodily sovereignty, self-determination, due process, and privacy (reproductive/familial/medical) all protect this sole right.

    So...are you saying there is some other authority that should be forcing women to remain pregnant against our will? If so, which one? That is the only other option...either elective abortion is legal or it's not. And if it's not...then pregant women must be identified, tracked, controlled to protect the life of the unborn, and punished if they dont.

    So...which authority are you claiming says that women do not have sole right to decide life and death of the unborn?



    The male that contributed the sperm does have an interest...but his interest does not override the rights, health, and physical sacrifices that women invest in pregnancy & childbirth. Unless you are suggesting that men be granted the right to demand that women remain pregnant against our will? Otherwise, we can all hope that a couple decides together but no law can make that fair.

    Since you mention society...I find that a bit odd since abortion has no negative effects on society. If it does, please list some for me?
    Yes it does. Legally and IMO morally. Since you disgree, by who's authority are you claiming this? The Constitution protecting women's rights of bodily sovereignty, self-determination, due process, and privacy (reproductive/familial/medical) all protect this sole right.
    Yes it does? Please cite the Amendment providing that specific, sole right.


    So...are you saying there is some other authority that should be forcing women to remain pregnant against our will? If so, which one? That is the only other option...either elective abortion is legal or it's not. And if it's not...then pregant women must be identified, tracked, controlled to protect the life of the unborn, and punished if they dont.

    Yes, I am. Moral authority,

    So...which authority are you claiming says that women do not have sole right to decide life and death of the unborn?

    Redundant. Answered in the question of point one. Bye the bye, I am not being translated. You might want to pass that on to your toadies.

    I almost left this out. don't want you to think I'm dodging you...
    Since you mention society...I find that a bit odd since abortion has no negative effects on society. If it does, please list some for me?[/QUOTE]

    How about loss of a member? Perhaps you don't care about that, since you have a petri dish view of the Grand scheme, but, to some it makes a difference.
    Regards,
    CP
    Last edited by concernedpuma; 09-22-19 at 10:07 PM.

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    Re: A great question for pro abortion types

    Quote Originally Posted by concernedpuma View Post

    Yes it does? Please cite the Amendment providing that specific, sole right.
    The 1st, 9th, 10th, and 14th Amendments.

    Quote Originally Posted by concernedpuma View Post
    ]Yes, I am. Moral authority,
    What moral authority? Our govt acts as one when it bases laws on our Constitution and our rights. The Bible/God is a moral authority. Human rights organizations are moral authorities. There are many, globally. So...which one?

    So...which authority are you claiming says that women do not have sole right to decide life and death of the unborn?

    Redundant. Answered in the question of point one. Bye the bye, I am not being translated. You might want to pass that on to your toadies.

    Regards,
    CP
    Now...I asked direct questions...what am I 'translating?' Did you not claim that the male partner and society have legitimate interests in the unborn?

    Yes or no?

    So then this question (the bold) seems reasonable:

    The male that contributed the sperm does have an interest...but his interest does not override the rights, health, and physical sacrifices that women invest in pregnancy & childbirth. Unless you are suggesting that men be granted the right to demand that women remain pregnant against our will? Otherwise, we can all hope that a couple decides together but no law can make that fair.

    Since you mention society...I find that a bit odd since abortion has no negative effects on society. If it does, please list some for me?

    What 'legitimate interest' does society have in the unborn? How is abortion harming society?
    Last edited by Lursa; 09-22-19 at 10:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
    This seems less like palliative care and more like a last meal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angel View Post
    Parrots of the Caribbean For Abortion!
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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