[W: 594] A great question for pro abortion types

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

HIP56948 said:

Was reading the other day how they (Alabama) was just about last in every quality of life attribute..gee, I wonder which political party ls in power there?..
Are you old enough to remember when Florida was a fairy decent state? I seem to remember when it was somewhere around 7-9 in quality if life. I think? it's 'bout 17th or worse now. (Before the monsters took over)

Click to expand...

I'm old enough to remember things some folks on here weren't born yet. I remember the nixon impeachment very well. I'm also old enough to know that most of the southern states are the poorest in the country and controlled by republicans and it's those same folks who believe by working hard they will get ahead. BS.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

bongsaway said:

I'm old enough to remember things some folks on here weren't born yet. I remember the nixon impeachment very well. I'm also old enough to know that most of the southern states are the poorest in the country and controlled by republicans and it's those same folks who believe by working hard they will get ahead. BS.

Click to expand...

Both the post and reply are off topic. Both are little more than a drive-by insult. To speak of states situations economically and socially are different points not called for in this thread. Please find a poll where there is some question of the status of states and be prepared to be challenged. Stay on topic in another thread and insult states where you feel it is appropriate and subsequent challenge will flow from those who know.
Regards,
CP

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Logical1 said:

The question is-----------if the baby aborted is not human, why are organs being harvested from them. That doesnt seem to compute.

Any logical comments?

Click to expand...

concernedpuma said:

Both the post and reply are off topic. Both are little more than a drive-by insult. To speak of states situations economically and socially are different points not called for in this thread. Please find a poll where there is some question of the status of states and be prepared to be challenged. Stay on topic in another thread and insult states where you feel it is appropriate and subsequent challenge will flow from those who know.
Regards,
CP

Click to expand...

CP, I will make the most logical comment on this thread.

This thread is based on a false premise that pro-choicers do not believe that a fetus is human.

I do not know of one pro-choicer that believes that a fetus that is gestating in a human being is not human. Of course it is human.

This thread has no topic other than how misinformed many are about the topic.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

year2late said:

CP, I will make the most logical comment on this thread.

This thread is based on a false premise that pro-choicers do not believe that a fetus is human.

I do not know of one pro-choicer that believes that a fetus that is gestating in a human being is not human. Of course it is human.

This thread has no topic other than how misinformed many are about the topic.

Click to expand...

Y2L, I have to believe that what you wrote is on target. I don't know if it is the importance of the issue that drags in all thought, or if the importance brings out the stand by unrelated argument.
This topic is so very important and beyond philosophy/opinion as to be maddening.
I appreciate your calming hand!
Regards,
CP

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

1-a baby isn't aborted
2-of course it is human

Organs are harvested from cadavers all the time.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:

I understand you calling out pro-lifers as anti-abortionist, fair enough. But, if we are going to strip away metaphors, then Pro-choice will have to live with their own pro-abortion moniker. Right?
Regards,
CP

Click to expand...

No. Being pro-choice in reproduction is not the same as pro-abortion any more than being pro-choice in diet means you think everyone should be vegetarian. It is ONLY the conservative position that is authoritarian and, as such, leaves women NO choice. Liberals aren't demanding that all fetuses be aborted. It's really very simple.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

D_NATURED said:

No. Being pro-choice in reproduction is not the same as pro-abortion any more than being pro-choice in diet means you think everyone should be vegetarian. It is ONLY the conservative position that is authoritarian and, as such, leaves women NO choice. Liberals aren't demanding that all fetuses be aborted. It's really very simple.

Click to expand...

Excellent reply, though you mix examples of same. You unfortunately drift from reproduction to diet. Those two items are not associative.
Yes, I agree that Conservatives(on this issue) are seeking laws to prevent capricious abortion. If that is the authority to which you refer; all law is authoritarian.
Further, just as not all liberals aren't demanding that all fetuses be aborted, not all conservatives are demanding a blanket forbidding of abortion for legitimate cause.
Regards,
CP

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:

Excellent reply, though you mix examples of same. You unfortunately drift from reproduction to diet. Those two items are not associative.

Click to expand...

Just to clarify, dnatured gave you what is called an analogy. Therefor it is not necessary that an association be made between reproduction and diet but that only that the two points have similar reasoning.

Yes, I agree that Conservatives(on this issue) are seeking laws to prevent capricious abortion. If that is the authority to which you refer; all law is authoritarian.
Further, just as not all liberals aren't demanding that all fetuses be aborted, not all conservatives are demanding a blanket forbidding of abortion for legitimate cause.
Regards,
CP

Click to expand...

It is poor reasoning when someone throws in the word "all" as someone is bound to point out that an exception to the rule might exist.

Your use of the words "capricious abortion" and " legitimate cause" are problematic. On one side the anti abortionist is demanding the right to decide which of these terms apply and how they are defined. While on the pro choice side the claim is that that decision is something best left to be decided by the woman who is actually pregnant.

So it is not a matter of either "all' or only some believing whether abortion is capricious or legitimate. It is a matter of who has the right to make that decision.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:

Excellent reply, though you mix examples of same. You unfortunately drift from reproduction to diet. Those two items are not associative.
Yes, I agree that Conservatives(on this issue) are seeking laws to prevent capricious abortion. If that is the authority to which you refer; all law is authoritarian.
Further, just as not all liberals aren't demanding that all fetuses be aborted, not all conservatives are demanding a blanket forbidding of abortion for legitimate cause.
Regards,
CP

Click to expand...

Choice is choice and mandates are mandates, it doesn't matter whether it's abortion or diet that we discuss. There are certainly some people who would favor taking away our choice to eat meat, too. I support choice in both areas.

As for the conservatives and the spectrum of crazy with regard to fetal advocacy, the trend is not for Republican state houses to make "capricious" abortions illegal, they go right for the heartbeat. Besides, the problem with the word "capricious" is that ALL pregnancies are, potentially, harmful or fatal to the woman who endures it. Therefore, I consider it reasonable to leave them that choice absolutely. There is no such thing as a capricious defense of one's self or life.

BTW, when authoritarians use the imaginary authority of god to propose subjugating women, they are violating both the constitution and the very idea of rational civil law. If you subtract the anti-choice people who are so inclined as a function of their faith, there would be very little serious opposition to the reproductive freedom of women.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

soylentgreen said:

Just to clarify, dnatured gave you what is called an analogy. Therefor it is not necessary that an association be made between reproduction and diet but that only that the two points have similar reasoning.




It is poor reasoning when someone throws in the word "all" as someone is bound to point out that an exception to the rule might exist.

Your use of the words "capricious abortion" and " legitimate cause" are problematic. On one side the anti abortionist is demanding the right to decide which of these terms apply and how they are defined. While on the pro choice side the claim is that that decision is something best left to be decided by the woman who is actually pregnant.

So it is not a matter of either "all' or only some believing whether abortion is capricious or legitimate. It is a matter of who has the right to make that decision.

Click to expand...

Of course I understood the attempt at analogy. If you noted, that was my objection. As analogy, to mean anything must be like/same comparison. I don't find diet and reproduction to be even remotely associated, as defined by this discussion.

The terms capricious and legitimate cause abortion are problematic to this point, merely because the haven't been codified. A law protecting the unborn and mother from same will not be problematic.
Regards,
CP

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

D_NATURED said:

Choice is choice and mandates are mandates, it doesn't matter whether it's abortion or diet that we discuss. There are certainly some people who would favor taking away our choice to eat meat, too. I support choice in both areas.

As for the conservatives and the spectrum of crazy with regard to fetal advocacy, the trend is not for Republican state houses to make "capricious" abortions illegal, they go right for the heartbeat. Besides, the problem with the word "capricious" is that ALL pregnancies are, potentially, harmful or fatal to the woman who endures it. Therefore, I consider it reasonable to leave them that choice absolutely. There is no such thing as a capricious defense of one's self or life.

BTW, when authoritarians use the imaginary authority of god to propose subjugating women, they are violating both the constitution and the very idea of rational civil law. If you subtract the anti-choice people who are so inclined as a function of their faith, there would be very little serious opposition to the reproductive freedom of women.

Click to expand...

First, I agree with your last statement. God and politicians are water and oil.
As to the rest, you seem to make a connection with pregnancy and mortality. Pregnancy in main is not lethal. Certainly, there have been sad cases where it was, but to make a case for abortion for convenience is to use those occasions in a particularly cruel way.
Finally, after boiling down your reply, I have to wonder; are you making the assertion that pregnancy is a means to subjugate women?
Regards,
CP

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:

Of course I understood the attempt at analogy. If you noted, that was my objection. As analogy, to mean anything must be like/same comparison. I don't find diet and reproduction to be even remotely associated, as defined by this discussion.

The terms capricious and legitimate cause abortion are problematic to this point, merely because the haven't been codified. A law protecting the unborn and mother from same will not be problematic.
Regards,
CP

Click to expand...

Unfortunately you do not seem to understand the comparison. For the analogy to work there does not have to be any association between diets and abortion. It is the reasoning that must be the similar which in that particular analogy it was.

Again you miss the point. The terms legitimate or capricious can only be defined by the woman who is pregnant. It is her right to decide what happens to her body. The law has no real business making that decision for her.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:

First, I agree with your last statement. God and politicians are water and oil.
As to the rest, you seem to make a connection with pregnancy and mortality. Pregnancy in main is not lethal.

Click to expand...

I've known two different women who died unexpectedly in childbirth. All pregnancies are potentially lethal and, as such, I yield to the wishes of women whether it's a risk they'll take or not. The loss of a woman, with a name, a history, a personality, with human connections, including existing children, is a greater loss than any fetus.

It seems an absurd contradiction to allow men to use lethal force in defense of their property but to deny women the right to stand their ground in defense of their very lives and health.

Certainly, there have been sad cases where it was, but to make a case for abortion for convenience is to use those occasions in a particularly cruel way.

Click to expand...

Abortion isn't cruelty, it's a medical procedure. Even when women survive birth, they are often permanently harmed by it. Calling self preservation "convenience" is to soft-sell the risks. When men intentionally ignore the cost to women, there is an implied agenda there that I can't ignore.

Finally, after boiling down your reply, I have to wonder; are you making the assertion that pregnancy is a means to subjugate women?

Click to expand...

No, but abortion restrictions are. Clearly, the laws being proposed are, largely, done by christian men, whose faith is notoriously misogynist. Telling women they don't have the right to decide who or what may use their bodily resources and, in so doing, potentially kill them, is a shamelessly obvious subjugation. I hope you understand that.

I like babies as much as the next guy but I can't separate babies from women, in any way. It is only by the sacrifices of women that any of us exist and, without women, humankind would fade out of existence. It's too bad that they must exist in a Male-created binary paradigm of mother or whore. That we can't celebrate them absent their reproductive value to men is a sad commentary on the patriarchy that continues to resonate through our culture. Abortion laws are thinly veiled misogyny pretending to be the love of babies. NOBODY loves babies better than women do. If we loved women as much, abortions really would be rare.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

I do not care if the fetus is human or not. I am neither pro life nor am I pro choice. I am pro abortion because I want to reduce the human population, and because abortion has beneficial eugenic effects. That is the reason I am in favor of the frequent use of capital punishment and a much larger number of long prison sentences at hard labor enforced by the whip.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

You are right. I excuse and dismiss as cavalier your comparison, that you generously call an analogy. This is the last I will write on that unfortunate attempt.
The terms capricious and legitimate are not sexually assigned. Abortion is no more confined by sex than murder, bank robbery, or drug sales. That women are the vessel of the unborn doesn't give them the sole right to decide life and death of the unborn. Society and the male partner have a legitimate interest in that. From thereby all of our laws flow. Abortion seems to be the only issue that is given to a sex for decision as opposed to the overall well being of the world.
All that being said, pregnancy is a mutual state of being. To allow males a free skate is wrong. What other state of situation doesn't consider accomplice responsibilities?!?!?!
Regards,
CP

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

SmartCat said:

I do not care if the fetus is human or not. I am neither pro life nor am I pro choice. I am pro abortion because I want to reduce the human population, and because abortion has beneficial eugenic effects. That is the reason I am in favor of the frequent use of capital punishment and a much larger number of long prison sentences at hard labor enforced by the whip.

Click to expand...

What a coincidence! I heard just the other day that if smart cats would check out there would be more parking spaces. Seems to make sense, using your reasoning.
Regards,
CP

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

D_NATURED said:

I've known two different women who died unexpectedly in childbirth. All pregnancies are potentially lethal and, as such, I yield to the wishes of women whether it's a risk they'll take or not. The loss of a woman, with a name, a history, a personality, with human connections, including existing children, is a greater loss than any fetus.

It seems an absurd contradiction to allow men to use lethal force in defense of their property but to deny women the right to stand their ground in defense of their very lives and health.



Abortion isn't cruelty, it's a medical procedure. Even when women survive birth, they are often permanently harmed by it. Calling self preservation "convenience" is to soft-sell the risks. When men intentionally ignore the cost to women, there is an implied agenda there that I can't ignore.



No, but abortion restrictions are. Clearly, the laws being proposed are, largely, done by christian men, whose faith is notoriously misogynist. Telling women they don't have the right to decide who or what may use their bodily resources and, in so doing, potentially kill them, is a shamelessly obvious subjugation. I hope you understand that.

I like babies as much as the next guy but I can't separate babies from women, in any way. It is only by the sacrifices of women that any of us exist and, without women, humankind would fade out of existence. It's too bad that they must exist in a Male-created binary paradigm of mother or whore. That we can't celebrate them absent their reproductive value to men is a sad commentary on the patriarchy that continues to resonate through our culture. Abortion laws are thinly veiled misogyny pretending to be the love of babies. NOBODY loves babies better than women do. If we loved women as much, abortions really would be rare.

Click to expand...

To your first point, God rest any who died in childbirth. I mean that
To the larger exploration of that: to correlate the death of a mother with child birth as a preventable disease is to use singular tragedy to make a point in discussion.
Certainly, you are not proud of that.
Regards,
CP

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:

That women are the vessel of the unborn doesn't give them the sole right to decide life and death of the unborn.

Click to expand...

Yes it does. Legally and IMO morally. Since you disagree, by who's authority are you claiming this? The Constitution protecting women's rights of bodily sovereignty, self-determination, due process, and privacy (reproductive/familial/medical) all protect this sole right.

So...are you saying there is some other authority that should be forcing women to remain pregnant against our will? If so, which one? That is the only other option...either elective abortion is legal or it's not. And if it's not...then pregant women must be identified, tracked, controlled to protect the life of the unborn, and punished if they dont.

So...which authority are you claiming says that women do not have sole right to decide life and death of the unborn?

Society and the male partner have a legitimate interest in that. From thereby all of our laws flow. Abortion seems to be the only issue that is given to a sex for decision as opposed to the overall well being of the world.

Click to expand...

The male that contributed the sperm does have an interest...but his interest does not override the rights, health, and physical sacrifices that women invest in pregnancy & childbirth. Unless you are suggesting that men be granted the right to demand that women remain pregnant against our will? Otherwise, we can all hope that a couple decides together but no law can make that fair.

Since you mention society...I find that a bit odd since abortion has no negative effects on society. If it does, please list some for me?

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Lursa said:

Yes it does. Legally and IMO morally. Since you disagree, by who's authority are you claiming this? The Constitution protecting women's rights of bodily sovereignty, self-determination, due process, and privacy (reproductive/familial/medical) all protect this sole right.

So...are you saying there is some other authority that should be forcing women to remain pregnant against our will? If so, which one? That is the only other option...either elective abortion is legal or it's not. And if it's not...then pregant women must be identified, tracked, controlled to protect the life of the unborn, and punished if they dont.

So...which authority are you claiming says that women do not have sole right to decide life and death of the unborn?



The male that contributed the sperm does have an interest...but his interest does not override the rights, health, and physical sacrifices that women invest in pregnancy & childbirth. Unless you are suggesting that men be granted the right to demand that women remain pregnant against our will? Otherwise, we can all hope that a couple decides together but no law can make that fair.

Since you mention society...I find that a bit odd since abortion has no negative effects on society. If it does, please list some for me?

Click to expand...

Yes it does. Legally and IMO morally. Since you disgree, by who's authority are you claiming this? The Constitution protecting women's rights of bodily sovereignty, self-determination, due process, and privacy (reproductive/familial/medical) all protect this sole right.
Yes it does? Please cite the Amendment providing that specific, sole right.


So...are you saying there is some other authority that should be forcing women to remain pregnant against our will? If so, which one? That is the only other option...either elective abortion is legal or it's not. And if it's not...then pregant women must be identified, tracked, controlled to protect the life of the unborn, and punished if they dont.

Yes, I am. Moral authority,

So...which authority are you claiming says that women do not have sole right to decide life and death of the unborn?

Redundant. Answered in the question of point one. Bye the bye, I am not being translated. You might want to pass that on to your toadies.

I almost left this out. don't want you to think I'm dodging you...
Since you mention society...I find that a bit odd since abortion has no negative effects on society. If it does, please list some for me?[/QUOTE]

How about loss of a member? Perhaps you don't care about that, since you have a petri dish view of the Grand scheme, but, to some it makes a difference.
Regards,
CP

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:

Yes it does? Please cite the Amendment providing that specific, sole right.

Click to expand...

The 1st, 9th, 10th, and 14th Amendments.

concernedpuma said:

]Yes, I am. Moral authority,

Click to expand...

What moral authority? Our govt acts as one when it bases laws on our Constitution and our rights. The Bible/God is a moral authority. Human rights organizations are moral authorities. There are many, globally. So...which one?

So...which authority are you claiming says that women do not have sole right to decide life and death of the unborn?

Redundant. Answered in the question of point one. Bye the bye, I am not being translated. You might want to pass that on to your toadies.

Regards,
CP

Click to expand...

Now...I asked direct questions...what am I 'translating?' Did you not claim that the male partner and society have legitimate interests in the unborn?

Yes or no?

So then this question (the bold) seems reasonable:


What 'legitimate interest' does society have in the unborn? How is abortion harming society?

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Logical1 said:

The question is-----------if the baby aborted is not human, why are organs being harvested from them. That doesnt seem to compute.

Any logical comments?

Click to expand...

What is "pro-abortion"?
Describe it for me. Be specific.
Describe how a "pro-abortion" person thinks.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Checkerboard Strangler said:

What is "pro-abortion"?
Describe it for me. Be specific.
Describe how a "pro-abortion" person thinks.

Click to expand...

Logic1, avoid answering this. It could only be construed as pandering. Give me the definition...please!

Regards,
CP

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:

Logic1, avoid answering this. It could only be construed as pandering. Give me the definition...please!

Regards,
CP

Click to expand...

It was an honest question.
I want to know how Mister Logic1 views people outside of the pro-Life movement.
Notice how I did not label them as "anti-abortionists".
If I was trolling, I would have used that term.

I honestly want to know what he thinks the views are of people like me.
Notice also, I did not use the term "pro-choice" either, as I am not actually a "member" of any pro-choice movement either.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:

Finally, after boiling down your reply, I have to wonder; are you making the assertion that pregnancy is a means to subjugate women?
Regards,
CP

Click to expand...

Subjugate is the wrong word. In today's world subjugation is probably illegal. But forcing women to take every pregnancy to term is taking away the right to make decisions and limits women's ability to direct their lives. Pregnancy puts women in a physically and psychologically dependent position for at least a year. Having or not having that year to direct one's life makes a difference in careers, wages, promotions, etc. Suppressing control over one's life makes the journey toward equal opportunity, pay and respect more difficult and keeps women in a second class position. I think it may be very difficult for many men to believe that the emotional and physical demands of pregnancy, child bearing and raising concentrate so much of a woman's energy on a child that it pushes women into a state of psychological dependence.

If contraceptives that women control are denied and the freedom to decide when to complete a pregnancy is also denied women have very little control over the direction of their lives. They have essentially been suppressed into a situation where there is only one choice, motherhood. This is not quality.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

weaver2 said:

Subjugate is the wrong word. In today's world subjugation is probably illegal. But forcing women to take every pregnancy to term is taking away the right to make decisions and limits women's ability to direct their lives. Pregnancy puts women in a physically and psychologically dependent position for at least a year. Having or not having that year to direct one's life makes a difference in careers, wages, promotions, etc. Suppressing control over one's life makes the journey toward equal opportunity, pay and respect more difficult and keeps women in a second class position. I think it may be very difficult for many men to believe that the emotional and physical demands of pregnancy, child bearing and raising concentrate so much of a woman's energy on a child that it pushes women into a state of psychological dependence.

If contraceptives that women control are denied and the freedom to decide when to complete a pregnancy is also denied women have very little control over the direction of their lives. They have essentially been suppressed into a situation where there is only one choice, motherhood. This is not quality.

Click to expand...

I think perhaps D_NATURED used that notion. Not I. I countered that.

You are correct, Though there are some things that can't be unleashed as individual rights or decision making. Must I go on beyond running red lights?
Yes, pregnancy is likely the penultimate life altering event, including the mother of that life.
Once again, you are correct. Men can't know the burden in social advancement having a child will cause a woman in the job market, or perhaps progress. Inequality in wage is a problem demanding action! But, as Romantic and silly as it may seem, there are bonds between a mother and child a father doesn't have the day of delivery. That is our loss, but still, that child is our obligation no less than the mother! A father has to earn the love innocently given a mother..
Been there. I get it and most hopefully, earned it!

Regards,
CP