[W: 594] A great question for pro abortion types

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Hamish Howl said:

You know, there are better things for me to read than people just making things up.

Good day.

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Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing, Thanks for saving me the effort.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:

I have NEVER said word one about being anti-abortion in all instances. In fact, when the life (not life-style) of the mother or child are in danger, or a situation (although rare) as you have described occurs, there is no question that an abortion should occur. THAT'S ethical.

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So how do you ethically make that decision for people then.? Since that can occur.. the mothers life..or the babies..or the situation I describe. Which by the way.. is not as rare as people think.....

How do you make the decision for people? Do you decide that the government official should be in a position to say "whoops..sorry but you only have a 75 percent chance of death.. and you have to have a 76% chance of death to get an abortion otherwise its unethical and murder? ".


Do you say.."well she only had a 75% chance of death. . but if it was 76% chance.. well then.. it would have been an ethical decision"?


What about the doctor? Do you think he/she should be in the position.. that if they make the call that an abortion is warranted.. that if after the fact.. some armchair doc who wasn't there.. and looks at a chart and testifies that its was only a 60 percent chance... the doctor now gets labeled a murderer.. and goes to jail?


IF a doctor refuses to perform an abortion.. knowing that it will fully save the life of the mother... and instead both die... is the doctor a murderer? Did he violate an ethical code by letting a woman die that he could easily have saved?

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

jaeger19 said:

So how do you ethically make that decision for people then.? Since that can occur.. the mothers life..or the babies..or the situation I describe. Which by the way.. is not as rare as people think.....

How do you make the decision for people? Do you decide that the government official should be in a position to say "whoops..sorry but you only have a 75 percent chance of death.. and you have to have a 76% chance of death to get an abortion otherwise its unethical and murder? ".


Do you say.."well she only had a 75% chance of death. . but if it was 76% chance.. well then.. it would have been an ethical decision"?


What about the doctor? Do you think he/she should be in the position.. that if they make the call that an abortion is warranted.. that if after the fact.. some armchair doc who wasn't there.. and looks at a chart and testifies that its was only a 60 percent chance... the doctor now gets labeled a murderer.. and goes to jail?


IF a doctor refuses to perform an abortion.. knowing that it will fully save the life of the mother... and instead both die... is the doctor a murderer? Did he violate an ethical code by letting a woman die that he could easily have saved?

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Utter nonsense. You are too far out for me to waste time responding to your "hypotheticals". "If" this, "if" that, ANYTHING to avoid accepting that unnecessary abortions are murder.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:

I have NEVER said word one about being anti-abortion in all instances. In fact, when the life (not life-style) of the mother or child are in danger, or a situation (although rare) as you have described occurs, there is no question that an abortion should occur. THAT'S ethical.

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OK.

Huge numbers of women during the Great Depression had abortions. The obvious monetary issues leading to house insecurity, etc...fearing homelessness it was the name of the game.

Do you think women during the depression who had abortions was about "lifestyle"?

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:

What if religion has NOTHING to do with it (and 99.99% of my position doesn't)? It's ETHICS, something you Socialists know NOTHING about.
If she "chooses" she can kill it. Not a speck of ethics in that choice, but that's what you understand and embrace.

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I am not a socialist and I do not find abortion unethical.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

year2late said:

OK.

Huge numbers of women during the Great Depression had abortions. The obvious monetary issues leading to house insecurity, etc...fearing homelessness it was the name of the game.

Do you think women during the depression who had abortions was about "lifestyle"?

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And once again the pro-abortion response is irrelevant. What happened years ago is called "history". If you keep doing the same thing it's called "insanity".

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Scrabaholic said:

I am not a socialist and I do not find abortion unethical.

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Well, you are certainly no Conservative, and abortion is completely unethical.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:

Utter nonsense. You are too far out for me to waste time responding to your "hypotheticals". "If" this, "if" that, ANYTHING to avoid accepting that unnecessary abortions are murder.

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Nope.. just hard reality. I am a medical provider. And I did not give you hypotheticals. I gave you real world.. real time decisions that have to be made.

YOU are the one that wants to avoid what "unnecessary abortion"..means.

But as a medical provider.. or any medical provider.. that may have to be in these VERY REAL situations. If you are going to call us murderers if we perform an "unnecessary abortion".. Then YOU MUST DEFINE IT CLEARLY.

Is it a 100 percent chance of death. 70? 40? 30?

Is it 100 percent chance of sterility? 70? 60?

Organ failure? what percentage?

What about the mental health of the mother? Does that count?

What about health of the baby? IF its going to suffer for 3 weeks is it necessary but suffer for 3 days.. not necessary?

THESE ARE REAL WORLD QUESTIONS!. These are the issues that women and their doctors face.


YOU don't want to take responsibility for the fact that there are TWO lives involved here and a multitude of real world decisions that have to be made.. and these decisions could directly cause the death of a fetus, the woman, or both.. or harm to both or either of them.

AS a medical provider.. its just maddening watching the consequences of you "anti abortion". wing nuts. YOU want to spout off about "unnecessary abortions".. but you won't take responsibility for what your laws and restrictions will mean in the real world.

For example.. the morons that have passed these recent laws that restrict a womens decision to have an abortion into 6 weeks? THEY ARE TOO STUPID TO REALIZE THAT MORE abortions... that's right..MORE abortions are likely to be done.

And that's because if you constrict a woman's decision into just a couple of weeks or less... (considering the time you figure you are pregnant... have tests to find out your health profile, and the babies, and then possibly have time to have an abortion under the time constraint)…. it means MORE women are likely to make the decisions to abort their babies .

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:

Well, you are certainly no Conservative, and abortion is completely unethical.

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True conservatives are pro choice. True conservatives believe in conservative/small government.. and keeping government out of healthcare of americans.

Abortion is unethical huh?

So then according to you.. a doctor that aborts a fetus to save the mother is unethical..

According to you.. he should let both die.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:

And once again the pro-abortion response is irrelevant. What happened years ago is called "history". If you keep doing the same thing it's called "insanity".

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There is a clear connection. Most women who choose abortion are either poor or working poor. Most are struggling to care for a child at home as well . Missing a shift let alone weeks of pay could pave the way to homelessness or life in a shelter....sounds like the same reasons women had abortions during the Great Depression,

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

jaeger19 said:

Nope.. just hard reality. I am a medical provider. And I did not give you hypotheticals. I gave you real world.. real time decisions that have to be made.

YOU are the one that wants to avoid what "unnecessary abortion"..means.

But as a medical provider.. or any medical provider.. that may have to be in these VERY REAL situations. If you are going to call us murderers if we perform an "unnecessary abortion".. Then YOU MUST DEFINE IT CLEARLY.

Is it a 100 percent chance of death. 70? 40? 30?

Is it 100 percent chance of sterility? 70? 60?

Organ failure? what percentage?

What about the mental health of the mother? Does that count?

What about health of the baby? IF its going to suffer for 3 weeks is it necessary but suffer for 3 days.. not necessary?

THESE ARE REAL WORLD QUESTIONS!. These are the issues that women and their doctors face.


YOU don't want to take responsibility for the fact that there are TWO lives involved here and a multitude of real world decisions that have to be made.. and these decisions could directly cause the death of a fetus, the woman, or both.. or harm to both or either of them.

AS a medical provider.. its just maddening watching the consequences of you "anti abortion". wing nuts. YOU want to spout off about "unnecessary abortions".. but you won't take responsibility for what your laws and restrictions will mean in the real world.

For example.. the morons that have passed these recent laws that restrict a womens decision to have an abortion into 6 weeks? THEY ARE TOO STUPID TO REALIZE THAT MORE abortions... that's right..MORE abortions are likely to be done.

And that's because if you constrict a woman's decision into just a couple of weeks or less... (considering the time you figure you are pregnant... have tests to find out your health profile, and the babies, and then possibly have time to have an abortion under the time constraint)…. it means MORE women are likely to make the decisions to abort their babies .

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You sensitive wimps have YET to recognize that necessary abortions are a medical decision, made by a doctor (which obviously you aren't), in consultation with the parentS. It's the abortions on command that make murderers. No issue. None.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

jaeger19 said:

True conservatives are pro choice. True conservatives believe in conservative/small government.. and keeping government out of healthcare of americans.

Abortion is unethical huh?

So then according to you.. a doctor that aborts a fetus to save the mother is unethical..

According to you.. he should let both die.

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Well, "True Conservatives " are certainly more logical than you "abortion anytime" types. And your projection that a "a doctor that aborts a fetus to save the mother is unethical" is just nonsense. Stop trying to take my position.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

year2late said:

There is a clear connection. Most women who choose abortion are either poor or working poor. Most are struggling to care for a child at home as well . Missing a shift let alone weeks of pay could pave the way to homelessness or life in a shelter....sounds like the same reasons women had abortions during the Great Depression,

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Possibly, but you are the first I've heard use that approach. It's a shame, but killing a child is murder, no matter the situation that got them there.

Language is important

smallvoice said:

Possibly, but you are the first I've heard use that approach. It's a shame, but killing a child is murder, no matter the situation that got them there.

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Do you mean a fetus? Roe doesn't recognize a fetus as being a child, until the fetus is born, or alternatively, the fetus must be viable outside the uterus.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:

Possibly, but you are the first I've heard use that approach. It's a shame, but killing a child is murder, no matter the situation that got them there.

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Then you should call the cops. What are you waiting for?

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

jaeger19 said:

Nope.. just hard reality. I am a medical provider. And I did not give you hypotheticals. I gave you real world.. real time decisions that have to be made.

YOU are the one that wants to avoid what "unnecessary abortion"..means.

But as a medical provider.. or any medical provider.. that may have to be in these VERY REAL situations. If you are going to call us murderers if we perform an "unnecessary abortion".. Then YOU MUST DEFINE IT CLEARLY.

Is it a 100 percent chance of death. 70? 40? 30?

Is it 100 percent chance of sterility? 70? 60?

Organ failure? what percentage?

What about the mental health of the mother? Does that count?

What about health of the baby? IF its going to suffer for 3 weeks is it necessary but suffer for 3 days.. not necessary?

THESE ARE REAL WORLD QUESTIONS!. These are the issues that women and their doctors face.


YOU don't want to take responsibility for the fact that there are TWO lives involved here and a multitude of real world decisions that have to be made.. and these decisions could directly cause the death of a fetus, the woman, or both.. or harm to both or either of them.

AS a medical provider.. its just maddening watching the consequences of you "anti abortion". wing nuts. YOU want to spout off about "unnecessary abortions".. but you won't take responsibility for what your laws and restrictions will mean in the real world.

For example.. the morons that have passed these recent laws that restrict a womens decision to have an abortion into 6 weeks? THEY ARE TOO STUPID TO REALIZE THAT MORE abortions... that's right..MORE abortions are likely to be done.

And that's because if you constrict a woman's decision into just a couple of weeks or less... (considering the time you figure you are pregnant... have tests to find out your health profile, and the babies, and then possibly have time to have an abortion under the time constraint)…. it means MORE women are likely to make the decisions to abort their babies .

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Well said.

Especially the last few paragraphs ( which I bolded ) where you point out that laws restricting choice cause more abortions to occur because women and doctors do not have the time for proper testing about possible health concerns.

The US has a lower abortion rate than Sweden , Denmark, Norway, France,or the United Kindom. We also have more weeks to conduct tests before the elective abortion cutoff.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:

And once again the pro-abortion response is irrelevant. What happened years ago is called "history". If you keep doing the same thing it's called "insanity".

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Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. (paraphrased)

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:

Well, you are certainly no Conservative, and abortion is completely unethical.

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You don't get to tell me what I am or am not. I know how I vote and since it's a secret ballot, you do not (know how I vote).

BTW, conservatives are for minimal govt. interference in our lives. Dictating what medical procedures we can or cannot have violates that tenet.

Unethical would be forcing women to gestate and give birth against their will, IMO.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:

made by a doctor (which obviously you aren't),

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Are you sure of that? (that s/he isn't a doctor) You might want to be sure before posting the above.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Scrabaholic said:

Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. (paraphrased)

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Nice try, but you conflate your issues. Repeating what was wrong in history is insanity coming from ignorance.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:

Nice try, but you conflate your issues. Repeating what was wrong in history is insanity coming from ignorance.

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The repetition over and over of one-liners and no ability to ever actually support rigid dogma with articulated debate seems like insanity coming from ignorance...pure delusion. No reasons for your 'beliefs' are ever given, for example.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Are you a doctor? Violate your oath much?

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Lursa said:

The repetition over and over of one-liners and no ability to ever actually support rigid dogma with articulated debate seems like insanity coming from ignorance...pure delusion. No reasons for your 'beliefs' are ever given, for example.

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Nor for yours, other than "it's 'her' body", which is invalid. There is another "body" involved.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:

Nor for yours, other than "it's 'her' body", which is invalid. There is another "body" involved.

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That's a lie. I have provided many different arguments, based on morality and law. You have refuted none of them. Your personal proclamations of your own self-righteousness are not 'arguments.'

And now you have resorted to outright lying.

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:

Possibly, but you are the first I've heard use that approach. It's a shame, but killing a child is murder, no matter the situation that got them there.

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It shouldn't a novel approach. The problem is that many pro-lifers speak to "inconvenience" in a way that makes one think she just wants and abortion to keep her nail appointments up.

More often than not these women are barely making ends meet. They may work multiple jobs to barely make ends meet. Missing one day can be devastating, missing a week can be catastrophic. Lump this in with the likleyhood they are either uninsured or stuck with medicaid. If I was stuck being pregnant going to impersonal understaffed county clinics I would likely be either on dialysis or dead. I felt fine. If I was poor, feeling as good as I did.....I might have blown off my appointment (because I felt fine) just to grab another shift so I would not face homelessness.

Women make decisions to abort usually based on the sum total of their personal position. Poor with poor social resources? Poor access to decent medical care? Worried about your born children? Most women who have abortions already are struggling to care for a child at home.