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[W: 594] A great question for pro abortion types

Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Logical1 said:
The question is-----------if the baby aborted is not human, why are organs being harvested from them. That doesnt seem to compute.

Any logical comments?
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Human is not in question.

Personhood is. Personhood is what enables rights. As a nation we have in the past systemically removed personhood and thus rights from certain groups of people. In this case it's not a question of life or when life begins, but as a nation of laws, we have to have some semblance of consistency.

A fetus is not a person thus the abdication of its rights to the mother, who is a defined person with personhood.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Gaius46 said:
How’s this for logical? You’re barking up the wrong tree. The baby’s humanity is isn’t what matters. What matters is the woman’s right to self determination. Her right to decide what to do with her body.
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What about the civil rights of the baby???????????
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Unitedwestand13 said:
In-vitro fertilization leads to the destruction of fertilized embryo’s that are not used in the process.

Doesn’t the destruction of fertilized embryos = destruction of life according to pro-life people?

Apparently not because they created an exemption for IVF in the Alabama bill.

Alabama state senator Clyde chambliss, who was one of the architects of the Bill, supplies the reason why that exemption was added, while inadvertently revealing the underlying motive behind these anti-abortion laws.

From an article of the guardian



'Consensual rape' and 're-implantation': the times lawmakers 'misspoke' on abortion | World news | The Guardian

Funny how all that concern for the unborn disappears as soon as it is taken out of the woman’s womb...


I wonder why...
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Wow. That quote says it all.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Here is a question for you. Do Human Beings require a host to live?
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Logical1 said:
What about the civil rights of the baby???????????
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Who says a fetus HAS civil rights? It’s very, very far from clear that a fetus does. But even assuming the fetus did have some rights so what? Rights come into conflict all the time and courts decide whose rights take precedence.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

vegas giants said:
Did smokers not read the side of the pack of cigarettes????
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Exactly! She takes her chances, and get's cancer (or pregnant, as the case may be).
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Unitedwestand13 said:
In-vitro fertilization leads to the destruction of fertilized embryo’s that are not used in the process.

Doesn’t the destruction of fertilized embryos = destruction of life according to pro-life people?

Apparently not because they created an exemption for IVF in the Alabama bill.

Alabama state senator Clyde chambliss, who was one of the architects of the Bill, supplies the reason why that exemption was added, while inadvertently revealing the underlying motive behind these anti-abortion laws.

From an article of the guardian



'Consensual rape' and 're-implantation': the times lawmakers 'misspoke' on abortion | World news | The Guardian

Funny how all that concern for the unborn disappears as soon as it is taken out of the woman’s womb...


I wonder why...
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A new rabbit hole?
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Scrabaholic said:
Every contraceptive pill/device has a failure rate.
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and it is THEIR responsibility to use the best possible, since there is a possibility of getting pregnant.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:
Exactly! She takes her chances, and get's cancer (or pregnant, as the case may be).
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And if she gets cancer, she can have the tumour(s) removed from her body ASAP.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Logical1 said:
It seems logical to me the fetus (again your description) might think a huge amount of harm has come to it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Er...what does not seem logical is that you believe the unborn "thinks" at all :roll:

No woman should be subjected to such self-indulgent, self-gratifying imaginary personification of the unborn.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
Didn't she use self determination and make a body choice when the pregnancy occurred?
Regards,
CP
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Most likely, by the data collected, she had sex in a very responsible manner. Not all accidents can be prevented:

Lursa said:
Not sure how out of touch with the human race you have to be to believe that people will start choosing to have less sex...one of the most enjoyable, satisfying, and bonding activities on the planet.*

*All thru history...and prehistory...people have had sex when it meant a high risk of death, disease, and social consequences for both men and women. STDs, death during childbirth, being disowned, publicly flogged or otherwise punished, exiled, no chance at decent jobs, etc etc etc...alot of those affected men too.

People are never going to stop enjoying sex and today, with safer, legal options to choose for accidental pregnancies, it's ludicrous to believe they will.


Actually , 68 percent of women of childbearing years in the US use artifical birth control consistently.

Another 22 percent:

-- Cannot become become pregnant due to a medical condition or procedure. (infertile or have been diagnosed as such)
-- Or are currently pregnant and thus are not currently using birth control

That leaves 10 percent who do not use artificial birth control for whatever reason( some may be using the so called rhythm method. Or similar natural methods)*


And now for the math:

--80-90% of American couples use birth control/have sex responsibly

--non-surgical birth control is only ~98% effective

--millions of Americans have sex millions and millions of times every day

--this means that there will still be 10s of thousands of accidental pregnancies every day.​

What would you suggest for couples to do to end all accidents? Including married couples that cannot afford a child yet?
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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:
It is for mature partners, particularly if they practice birth control that doesn't involve killing.
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I think you should look at reality before continuing to post such responses. The actual numbers (all previously posted):

Lursa said:
Not sure how out of touch with the human race you have to be to believe that people will start choosing to have less sex...one of the most enjoyable, satisfying, and bonding activities on the planet.

*All thru history...and prehistory...people have had sex when it meant a high risk of death, disease, and social consequences for both men and women. STDs, death during childbirth, being disowned, publicly flogged or otherwise punished, exiled, no chance at decent jobs, etc etc etc...alot of those affected men too.

People are never going to stop enjoying sex and today, with safer, legal options to choose for accidental pregnancies, it's ludicrous to believe they will.


Actually , 68 percent of women of childbearing years in the US use artificial birth control consistently.

Another 22 percent:

-- Cannot become become pregnant due to a medical condition or procedure. (infertile or have been diagnosed as such)
-- Or are currently pregnant and thus are not currently using birth control

That leaves 10 percent who do not use artificial birth control for whatever reason( some may be using the so called rhythm method. Or similar natural methods)*


And now for the math:

--80-90% of American couples use birth control/have sex responsibly

--non-surgical birth control is only ~98% effective

--millions of Americans have sex millions and millions of times every day

--this means that there will still be 10s of thousands of accidental pregnancies every day.​
Click to expand...
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Unitedwestand13 said:
In-vitro fertilization leads to the destruction of fertilized embryo’s that are not used in the process.

Doesn’t the destruction of fertilized embryos = destruction of life according to pro-life people?

Apparently not because they created an exemption for IVF in the Alabama bill.

Alabama state senator Clyde chambliss, who was one of the architects of the Bill, supplies the reason why that exemption was added, while inadvertently revealing the underlying motive behind these anti-abortion laws.

From an article of the guardian



'Consensual rape' and 're-implantation': the times lawmakers 'misspoke' on abortion | World news | The Guardian

Funny how all that concern for the unborn disappears as soon as it is taken out of the woman’s womb...


I wonder why...
Click to expand...

They may have ignored it in Alabama and other states pushing this forward to the SC, but the SC will have to address this use as well in their decisions :)

Either they're 'persons' or not if that's the direction they take.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Logical1 said:
What about the civil rights of the baby???????????
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How many times do you need to be reminded that the unborn have no rights? None.

And in order to recognize rights for the unborn, it would require superseding...violating...the rights of women.

They cannot be treated equally under the law. It's not possible under our Constitution.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Logical1 said:
What about the civil rights of the baby???????????
Click to expand...

What baby? Until the 6-7 month range, the fetus isn't a baby.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Lursa said:
Most likely, by the data collected, she had sex in a very responsible manner. Not all accidents can be prevented:

Lursa said:
Not sure how out of touch with the human race you have to be to believe that people will start choosing to have less sex...one of the most enjoyable, satisfying, and bonding activities on the planet.*

*All thru history...and prehistory...people have had sex when it meant a high risk of death, disease, and social consequences for both men and women. STDs, death during childbirth, being disowned, publicly flogged or otherwise punished, exiled, no chance at decent jobs, etc etc etc...alot of those affected men too.

People are never going to stop enjoying sex and today, with safer, legal options to choose for accidental pregnancies, it's ludicrous to believe they will.


Actually , 68 percent of women of childbearing years in the US use artifical birth control consistently.

Another 22 percent:

-- Cannot become become pregnant due to a medical condition or procedure. (infertile or have been diagnosed as such)
-- Or are currently pregnant and thus are not currently using birth control

That leaves 10 percent who do not use artificial birth control for whatever reason( some may be using the so called rhythm method. Or similar natural methods)*


And now for the math:

--80-90% of American couples use birth control/have sex responsibly

--non-surgical birth control is only ~98% effective

--millions of Americans have sex millions and millions of times every day

--this means that there will still be 10s of thousands of accidental pregnancies every day.​

What would you suggest for couples to do to end all accidents? Including married couples that cannot afford a child yet?
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Lursa, you are very well studied on the issue and I doubt I can mount a contrary mathematical argument. I fear you may not understand that those who oppose abortion on demand have a, dare I say, spiritual objection. It isn't a formula that can be displayed. It feels as a deep need to protect the most innocent of us. I have agreed with you before about the exceptions, like incest, rape, mothers survivability. The very early termination of pregnancy are, in my own personal view, a sad but understandable exception as well.
Regards,
CP
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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:
and it is THEIR responsibility to use the best possible, since there is a possibility of getting pregnant.
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Even the best possible birth control has a failure rate.
 
Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
Lursa said:
Most likely, by the data collected, she had sex in a very responsible manner. Not all accidents can be prevented:



Lursa, you are very well studied on the issue and I doubt I can mount a contrary mathematical argument. I fear you may not understand that those who oppose abortion on demand have a, dare I say, spiritual objection. It isn't a formula that can be displayed. It feels as a deep need to protect the most innocent of us. I have agreed with you before about the exceptions, like incest, rape, mothers survivability. The very early termination of pregnancy are, in my own personal view, a sad but understandable exception as well.
Regards,
CP
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How do such people justify the desire to force their beliefs on women that do not believe the same?

Such people, if women, are free to exercise their beliefs personally on the issue.

I agree it's sad and only take comfort in knowing the facts...that early abortion is the rule...97.5%. And the remaining are even more sadder: wanted, a family tragedty and yet abortion is medically necessary. At least no pain or awareness is felt.
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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Lursa said:
concernedpuma said:
How do such people justify the desire to force their beliefs on women that do not believe the same?

Such people, if women, are free to exercise their beliefs personally on the issue.

I agree it's sad and only take comfort in knowing the facts...that early abortion is the rule...97.5%. And the remaining are even more sadder: wanted, a family tragedty and yet abortion is medically necessary. At least no pain or awareness is felt.
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You know I don't want to cross swords with you, but I have to ask, when do the rights of the father(partner) surface, assuming the father wants the child? Remember the description sexual Union?
Regards,
CP
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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

concernedpuma said:
Lursa said:
You know I don't want to cross swords with you, but I have to ask, when do the rights of the father(partner) surface, assuming the father wants the child? Remember the description sexual Union?
Regards,
CP
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Legally they have no rights. If the couple used birth control, as most do, then he has no reasonable expectation or entitlement.

If a couple is married, then I believe the woman should consult the husband but legally, in the end it's her right...all the physical risks are hers alone.

Otherwise IMO this is off-topic.
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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

Lursa said:
concernedpuma said:
Legally they have no rights. If the couple used birth control, as most do, then he has no reasonable expectation or entitlement.

If a couple is married, then I believe the woman should consult the husband but legally, in the end it's her right...all the physical risks are hers alone.

Otherwise IMO this is off-topic.
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Sorry to have drifted off topic. I guess I didn't realize I was, given the poll question. I will stop.
In any event, have a pleasant evening.
Regards,
CP
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Re: A great question for pro abortion types

smallvoice said:
I can't say I agree with that sentiment, but they seem to ignore the expected outcome of unprotected sex.
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You do know that birth control is not 100% fail proof? Women have gotten pregnant while on the pill, using IUD's, condoms, etc. Heck, some women even got pregnant after having their tubes tied and what about cases where pregnancy occurs after vasectomies.
 
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