• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

[W:69] Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

But, that doesn't mean the unborn aren't also protected as being human being persons.
Cite a single law that does.

I will go back to the FACT
You have yet to post a single fact instead of your made up bull crap.

that if a child is killed in the womb, the perpetrator can be charged with murder.
Read the ****ing law.

That is settled law and happens.
You have no clue what you are babbling about.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

There is no word "personhood." What you showed is simply is that "Every act..........shall include every infant born alive." Makes sense. But, that doesn't mean the unborn aren't also protected as being human being persons. It just means every act shall include those born alive. I will go back to the FACT that if a child is killed in the womb, the perpetrator can be charged with murder. That is settled law and happens. Admit that. And, when you stop being so pig headed about this FACT, then you will understand the unborn child is still a person and has rights.

Great, I gave you a source from an unbiased legal site. You dont really understand what it means.

Now you give me a source that proves the bold.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

...And, when you stop being so pig headed about this FACT, then you will understand the unborn child is still a person and has rights.

The unborn is NOT a person and an unborn does not have rights.

In the history of the United States, the unborn have never had rights.


States have rights to protect non persons. Think about the anti cruelty laws some states have even though animals have no rights.

Some states even protect the parent’s interest in the unborn

At most , the law represents the potentiality of life.



From Roe vs. Wade section IX:

Appellee argues that the State's determination to recognize and protect prenatal life from and after conception constitutes a compelling state interest. As noted above, we do not agree fully with either formulation....

some States permit the parents of a stillborn child to maintain an action for wrongful death because of prenatal injuries. 65 Such an action, however, would appear to be one to vindicate the parents' interest and is thus consistent with the view that the fetus, at most, represents only the potentiality of life. G Similarly, unborn children have been recognized as acquiring rights or interests by way of inheritance or other devolution of property, and have been represented by guardians ad litem. 66 Perfection of the interests involved, again, has generally been contingent upon live birth.

In short, the unborn have never been recognized in the law as persons in the whole sense.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

The unborn is NOT a person and an unborn does not have rights.

In the history of the United States, the unborn have never had rights.


States have rights to protect non persons. Think about the anti cruelty laws some states have even though animals have no rights.

Some states even protect the parent’s interest in the unborn

At most , the law represents the potentiality of life.



From Roe vs. Wade section IX:

IMO that is completely rational, fair, and recognizes that women's rights are entitled to priority in all cases when there is an (imagined ) conflict between woman and unborn. (Imagined because the unborn have no rights)

2/3rds embryos don’t survive

Which fertilized eggs will become healthy human fetuses? Researchers predict with 93% accuracy -- ScienceDaily

Two-thirds of all human embryos fail to develop successfully. Now, in a new study, researchers have shown that they can predict with 93 percent certainty which fertilized eggs will make it to a critical developmental milestone and which will stall and die. The findings are important to the understanding of the fundamentals of human development at the earliest stages, which have largely remained a mystery despite the attention given to human embryonic stem cell research.

Why should women be forced by law to sacrifice their health, even their lives, and their opportunities in life and forgo upholding their responsibilities to their families and employers and communities based on such poor odds for that embryonic life?
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

So,you can't prove it. I understand and accept your concession.

Same to you but more of it. Cut low. Blah, blah, blah. It was your analogy. You prove it.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Great, I gave you a source from an unbiased legal site. You dont really understand what it means.

Now you give me a source that proves the bold.

I explained to you what it means. You simply haven't a clue what punctuation does and how it changes meanings. Again, why can you be charged with murder of an unborn child if you stab the mother or kick the unborn child if the unborn child is not a person? It's really simple logic and reasoning. And, when you can answer that question, then you will be able to read the quote about that law and come to the same conclusion I have. The law is not ruling out unborn children.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

I explained to you what it means. You simply haven't a clue what punctuation does and how it changes meanings. Again, why can you be charged with murder of an unborn child if you stab the mother or kick the unborn child if the unborn child is not a person? It's really simple logic and reasoning. And, when you can answer that question, then you will be able to read the quote about that law and come to the same conclusion I have. The law is not ruling out unborn children.

i'm not looking for your opinion, I'm looking for sourced information. I have no reason to answer more of your questions until you answer the question I asked you. Otherwise your questions arent even valid.

I gave you the courtesy of a source and quoted and linked it.

So, please source the bold:

There is no word "personhood." What you showed is simply is that "Every act..........shall include every infant born alive." Makes sense. But, that doesn't mean the unborn aren't also protected as being human being persons. It just means every act shall include those born alive. I will go back to the FACT that if a child is killed in the womb, the perpetrator can be charged with murder. That is settled law and happens. Admit that. And, when you stop being so pig headed about this FACT, then you will understand the unborn child is still a person and has rights.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

The unborn is NOT a person and an unborn does not have rights.
In the history of the United States, the unborn have never had rights.
States have rights to protect non persons. Think about the anti cruelty laws some states have even though animals have no rights.
Some states even protect the parent’s interest in the unborn
At most , the law represents the potentiality of life.
From Roe vs. Wade section IX:

Words like "would appear" or "at most" or "potentially" or "may be" are what I call "fuzzy words." Fuzzy words are used to try and make a point true. They are heavily used in physics when dealing with the Big Bang Theory or other scientific things that have no factual basis, only fuzzy theory that might be right or not. This post of yours is full of fuzzy words attempting to make the idea of abortion civilized and necessary. Now, to real law and facts.

"The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-212) is a United States law which recognizes an embryo or fetus in utero as a legal victim, if they are injured or killed during the commission of any of over 60 listed federal crimes of violence. The law defines "child in utero" as "a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb." - Wikipedia

So, an unborn child at any stage of development by Federal Law is a human being (Homo Sapiens). That is the correct fact of law. You said there was no Federal Law saying this. Oops!
The article from Wikipedia goes on to say:
"The law applies only to certain offenses over which the United States government has jurisdiction, including certain crimes committed on federal properties, against certain federal officials and employees, and by members of the military. In addition, it covers certain crimes that are defined by statute as federal offenses wherever they occur, no matter who commits them, such as certain crimes of terrorism. Because of principles of federalism embodied in the United States Constitution, federal criminal law does not apply to crimes prosecuted by the individual states. However, 38 states also recognize the fetus or "unborn child" as a crime victim, at least for purposes of homicide or feticide. The legislation was both hailed and vilified by various legal observers who interpreted the measure as a step toward granting legal personhood to human fetuses, even though the bill explicitly contained a provision excepting abortion, stating that the bill would not "be construed to permit the prosecution" "of any person for conduct relating to an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf", "of any person for any medical treatment of the pregnant woman or her unborn child" or "of any woman with respect to her unborn child."

So, 12 states don't conclude the same thing at this time, if you know anything about what the past Presidents have been doing with State Land, the Federal Government owns most of the land in those 12 states as well. So, pretty much all the country is under that law and the unborn are individual persons with the right to life and not be killed, except for abortion in most states. That is changing. Those states are simply falling in line with the law. And, yes, the Supreme Court will have to re-visit Roe v Wade because the perception of when life begins has changed. Science has changed the minds of many women that a fetus is a person. Science has proven that at certain stages, the unborn can feel, hear, see light, think, dream and respond to outside stimuli. And, for a long time now, premature babies can live at a very early stage. A friend of mine had a baby weighing only 2 pounds 25 years ago and the person (baby) is still alive doing fine. Married and has kids of his own. When my wife was pregnant with our first child, I remember feeling his little foot pressing against my wife's tummy. I would push back and he would react by pushing back at me. We went back and forth several times. It was fun. Oh, he was very alive and human. I don't need science to tell me that is true.

In my opinion, abortionists have either had an abortion, know a friend, family or co-worker that has had an abortion. So, they support abortion to justify their sins. Justify the unnecessary killing of a baby. Your statement, "When it comes to matters of Reproductive health, Politicians and the religious dogma of another faith should never interfere with religious liberty of an individual or her faith," is circular reasoning. Who gave the woman liberty or her faith? Those that you say should never interfere with her rights to choose abortion or life for her unborn child. The politicians, God, friends and family. The fact is, there is a better way than to just kill, kill, kill! 60 million babies have been murdered since Roe v Wade. About the same as Hitler, Stalin and Mao together. And, for what? Convenience? Sad, very sad.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-212) is a United States law which recognizes an embryo or fetus in utero as a legal victim, if they are injured or killed during the commission of any of over 60 listed federal crimes of violence. The law defines "child in utero" as "a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

The Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004 (Public Law 108-212) is a United States law which recognizes an embryo or fetus in utero as a legal victim, if they are injured or killed during the commission of any of over 60 listed federal crimes of violence. The law defines "child in utero" as "a member of the species Homo sapiens, at any stage of development, who is carried in the womb."

And nowhere does it categorize them as a 'human being' or 'person'...for very good reason. They are not legally defined that way. Per the link and proof that I posted.

Those laws mostly treat the unborn similar to property and act on behalf of the interests of the woman and/or the state.

There are laws that protect pets and livestock too...doesnt make them persons and laws pertaining to them are charged in the interests of their owners or the state.

And no. Please read carefully. I did not write that the unborn 'are' property.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

And nowhere does it categorize them as a 'human being' or 'person'...for very good reason. They are not legally defined that way. Per the link and proof that I posted...And no. Please read carefully. I did not write that the unborn 'are' property.

Cougarbear: You didn't but others have. What do you think "legal victim" means? You can't be a victim unless you are a person.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Cougarbear: You didn't but others have. What do you think "legal victim" means? You can't be a victim unless you are a person.

OK, please source that.

Recently here, a black bear was the victim of a hunter. And a deer was the victim of being run over.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

OK, please source that.

Recently here, a black bear was the victim of a hunter. And a deer was the victim of being run over.

You are really going to go down that path of ridiculousness? Why? What animal has been murdered? None. They have been killed and there are laws against that. None that would get you life in prison. But, killing an unborn child could do just that. Legal victim refers to a human victim.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

You are really going to go down that path of ridiculousness? Why? What animal has been murdered? None. They have been killed and there are laws against that. None that would get you life in prison. But, killing an unborn child could do just that. Legal victim refers to a human victim.

No non-human animals are murdered, thank you. You just made my point.

I am not using my opinions unsupported by facts. So far, you are.

"And legal victim refers to a human victim?" Nobody saidi it didnt have human DNA. The link I gave you however, proved that human DNA alone is not enough to be legally considered a person or human being.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

You are really going to go down that path of ridiculousness? Why? What animal has been murdered? None. They have been killed and there are laws against that. None that would get you life in prison. But, killing an unborn child could do just that. Legal victim refers to a human victim.
Dude, he said VICTIM....just like you did.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Dude, he said VICTIM....just like you did.

"Legal" victim as a human being. And, "murder." Murder is a term used for the unlawful killing of a human being. Anyway you look at it. the baby is human. Homo Sapiens.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Again, why can you be charged with murder of an unborn child if you stab the mother or kick the unborn child if the unborn child is not a person?
Read the ****ing law.

It's really simple logic and reasoning.
Nothing you have ever shown.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Read the ****ing law.

Nothing you have ever shown.

Like I say, you liberals have no logic and reasoning skills.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

"Legal" victim as a human being. And, "murder." Murder is a term used for the unlawful killing of a human being. Anyway you look at it. the baby is human. Homo Sapiens.

Lursa's point was made.

Now you are dancing around it.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Lursa's point was made.

Now you are dancing around it.

I'm trying to help you guys out because you haven't the IQ to understand simple language. Please accept my help. I also have a good mental doctor to help out those with Trump Derangement Syndrome in which I think that is at the heart of all of this. Would you like his name and number :2wave:
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

I'm trying to help you guys out because you haven't the IQ to understand simple language. Please accept my help. I also have a good mental doctor to help out those with Trump Derangement Syndrome in which I think that is at the heart of all of this. Would you like his name and number :2wave:

Looks like you haven't taken your own advice.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Same to you but more of it. Cut low. Blah, blah, blah. It was your analogy. You prove it.

Can you not follow the discussion? You said my analogy was silly. I asked you to prove it. smh
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Because you can not understand the simple words of a law?

Oh, I understand them perfectly. But, to interpret and reason logically instead of emotionally is the basic difference between liberal and conservative. Look how emotional the liberal Democrats are with this Trump thing. They demand that Trump let Mueller finish his report without interference, so Trump does that and provides every document and interview requested by Mueller. Mueller agreed to Trump's written response so that's good enough. Yet, when Mueller finishes and lets people see it, only liberals have another emotional upheaval response and refuse to accept Mueller's report. That's an emotional response, not one with logic or reason.
 
Back
Top Bottom