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[W:69] Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

CLAX1911 said:
That's a bit of an unreasonable request. As far as I know the only organization that performs Abortions is planned Parenthood and they have a vested interest in keeping that sort of occurrence under wraps. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a fetus can survive an abortion procedure. I doubt it's common at all, but all we can go by is testimonials from former workers they seem to indicate that it did occur. Often times they are treated as political actors.
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Only PP performs abortions? That's nonsense. Where are you getting your information? And what is their "vested interest" in keeping abortions "under wraps"? That makes no sense.

Abortions are performed by a great many ob/gyn doctors in clinics all over the country. Nearly all are early in the first trimester, before week 12. No fetus at that stage is viable. In late term abortions, which constitute a tiny fraction of the whole, even for those that do survive the procedure, if they are not healthy, which is virtually always the case, would it be better to put them on life support? What if their abnormalities are extremely painful? Would you really subject a newborn to hours, days, even weeks of agony?

See the link I provided for Crystal above, comment #111.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

minnie616 said:
Private clinics, private doctors and hospitals also perform abortions.

When clinic abortions are performed in the late second trimester a D and E is performed which means it is dismembered and removed in pieces. Intact D and Es were banned at clinics when the partial birth ban went to effect.


Only hospitals allow early induced abortions or c-section abortions where there is a slight chance the infant might survive.

Yes, early induced labor of a non viable fetus is given or a C-section of a non viable fetus is performed, It is still an abortion and is included in the abortion stats.

From:



Read more:


Abortions at or after 24 weeks are sometimes needed medically. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. | Dr. Jen Gunter



If that ever happened than the Born Alive Infants Protection Act would take place and there would be 2 choices.

1 extraordinary care or
2. Palliative care.
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Great post, thank you.

My favorite bit from that article, and my message to several of the arrogant, judgmental morons on this thread:

"Triploidy or mirror syndrome or a massive cystic hygroma or any other birth defect that can affect how the fetus is positioned and how it molds and bends to deliver vaginally. If you don’t know what these terms mean, then you are not qualified to discuss abortion at or after 24 weeks, so stop. Now."
 
Obscurity said:
The fetus is defacto in prison with the pregnant mother against its will. This alone displays the pro birth position is authoritarian and ignorant of law as well as constitutional rights.
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A fetus is not a sentient human being and has no sense of self, therefore no cognitive will.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Crystal said:
‘What was it?
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You believe that the fetus has rights on conception.

How do you justify jailing mothers who are pregnant? That automatically challenges the legality of imprisoning an innocent "person," name the fetus, for crimes it did not commit.

It can go even deeper, but let's start here.
 
Idiometer said:
A fetus is not a sentient human being and has no sense of self, therefore no cognitive will.
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Hence why the whole "fetus has the same rights" argument is nonsense and the right wingers who pitch it know that.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Obscurity said:
You believe that the fetus has rights on conception.

How do you justify jailing mothers who are pregnant? That automatically challenges the legality of imprisoning an innocent "person," name the fetus, for crimes it did not commit.

It can go even deeper, but let's start here.
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I didn’t answer because they are stupid questions but i’ll Humor you.

I never suggested jailing people for having an abortion. Why would I? Roe v Wade is the law of the land.
What crimes can a baby commit? It hasn’t been born yet!
I never once said a fetus has rights on conception. So when do you think a baby has rights?
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Crystal said:
I didn’t answer because they are stupid questions but i’ll Humor you.

I never suggested jailing people for having an abortion. Why would I? Roe v Wade is the law of the land.
What crimes can a baby commit? It hasn’t been born yet!
I never once said a fetus has rights on conception. So when do you think a baby has rights?
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So a fetus does not have rights at conception? If so, when does it obtain rights? To you, personally?

My suggestion here is a pregnant mother commits a crime. Say, robbing a grocery store. She is then jailed. By the pro-life position, that fetuses are human lives, this entails rights, as human life is entitled to rights - right? If so, then we cannot legally jail the fetus while it is in utero as this is an egregious violation of its human rights.

It is not a stupid question. You simply dislike the question because it demolishes the idiocy of the pro-birth position. And, if I recall, you said yes when I asked you about when a fetus gets its rights.

I personally believe a human gets its own personal rights when that human is separated from the system that is enabling it to live.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Obscurity said:
So a fetus does not have rights at conception? If so, when does it obtain rights? To you, personally?

My suggestion here is a pregnant mother commits a crime. Say, robbing a grocery store. She is then jailed. By the pro-life position, that fetuses are human lives, this entails rights, as human life is entitled to rights - right? If so, then we cannot legally jail the fetus while it is in utero as this is an egregious violation of its human rights.

It is not a stupid question. You simply dislike the question because it demolishes the idiocy of the pro-birth position. And, if I recall, you said yes when I asked you about when a fetus gets its rights.

I personally believe a human gets its own personal rights when that human is separated from the system that is enabling it to live.
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So if a pregnant mom commits a crime what are you going to do? Give her an abortion so the baby dosen’t go To jail? That your plan?
 
A baby is born and it still needs that “system” to feed it, clothe it, warm it til the ripe old age of 18. So you want legal abortions til age 18?
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

CLAX1911 said:
That's a bit of an unreasonable request. As far as I know the only organization that performs Abortions is planned Parenthood and they have a vested interest in keeping that sort of occurrence under wraps. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a fetus can survive an abortion procedure. I doubt it's common at all, but all we can go by is testimonials from former workers they seem to indicate that it did occur. Often times they are treated as political actors.
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Planned Parenthood does not do post viability abortion. There are only 2 or 3 clinics in the US that do (none here in Canada) - one is in Colorado, another in a northeastern state (Dr Carhart) and I'm not sure if there is a third or not. This is just off the top of my head, I didn't look it up right now.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Crystal said:
So if a pregnant mom commits a crime what are you going to do? Give her an abortion so the baby dosen’t go To jail? That your plan?
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I'm asking you, because you're the pro-birther. What do you do? If you jail her, you are subverting the rights of the fetus to not be jailed for no crime.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Obscurity said:
I'm asking you, because you're the pro-birther. What do you do? If you jail her, you are subverting the rights of the fetus to not be jailed for no crime.
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So let’s abort the baby. Do you love that answer to your very stupid question?
 
Crystal said:
A baby is born and it still needs that “system” to feed it, clothe it, warm it til the ripe old age of 18. So you want legal abortions til age 18?
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And yet I was able to hire sitters to care for my children, so they were not dependent on my body to survive. If I were to die they could be cared for by the person that I have set up for their care, they will not die without my body. In fact a child once born can be cared for by nurses, doctors, grandparents, sitters, day care workers, the other parent, a foster parent, adoptive parents. During gestation only one persons body can keep a fetus alive.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

year2late said:
Please do not tell me you are peddling the crap about a woman being mentally unstable because of pregnancy hormones...therefore cannot make coherent decisions.....
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Studies have proven that not being able to pay your bill decreases your IQ by 1 standard deviation. Imagine not being able to pay your bills and considering terminating a fetus!!

Your functional bandwidth decreases and more subjected to bad ideas and impulses.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

CLAX1911 said:
That's a bit of an unreasonable request. As far as I know the only organization that performs Abortions is planned Parenthood and they have a vested interest in keeping that sort of occurrence under wraps. I don't think it's unreasonable to think that a fetus can survive an abortion procedure. I doubt it's common at all, but all we can go by is testimonials from former workers they seem to indicate that it did occur. Often times they are treated as political actors.
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Scrabaholic said:
Planned Parenthood does not do post viability abortion. There are only 2 or 3 clinics in the US that do (none here in Canada) - one is in Colorado, another in a northeastern state (Dr Carhart) and I'm not sure if there is a third or not. This is just off the top of my head, I didn't look it up right now.
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The third clinic is is New Mexico, If I Remember correctly.

There are only 4 clinic doctors in the US who perform abortions past 21 weeks.

From Romper :

In 2013, there were four doctors in the country who performed abortions after the 20th week of pregnancy, according to Slate. (Current numbers could be even lower.)

...

Dr. Gunter supplied a few facts of her own. Only 1.3 percent of abortions happen at, or after, 21 weeks, she said, and 80 percent of those are the results of catastrophic defects with the fetus.
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Obscurity said:
The fetus is defacto in prison with the pregnant mother against its will.
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well technically it would be anywhere and everywhere the mother would be. Unless it decided to crawl out on its own free will it's going to be there.

This alone displays the pro birth position is authoritarian and ignorant of law as well as constitutional rights.
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no it doesn't. I would imagine that should have fetus have a will it would likely choose to live. I'm not familiar with fetal suicide.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Idiometer said:
Only PP performs abortions? That's nonsense. Where are you getting your information? And what is their "vested interest" in keeping abortions "under wraps"? That makes no sense.
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no it makes perfect sense. Planned Parenthood whether you like it or not is very political. I understand they have to be to survive I'm just stating facts. and there are people that left that organization and speak out against it. if you want to tell me that they are political activist I will agree with you

Abortions are performed by a great many ob/gyn doctors in clinics all over the country. Nearly all are early in the first trimester, before week 12. No fetus at that stage is viable. In late term abortions, which constitute a tiny fraction of the whole, even for those that do survive the procedure, if they are not healthy, which is virtually always the case, would it be better to put them on life support? What if their abnormalities are extremely painful? Would you really subject a newborn to hours, days, even weeks of agony?
Click to expand...
I don't understand the argument you're making here.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Idiometer said:
Only PP performs abortions? That's nonsense. Where are you getting your information? And what is their "vested interest" in keeping abortions "under wraps"? That makes no sense.

Abortions are performed by a great many ob/gyn doctors in clinics all over the country. Nearly all are early in the first trimester, before week 12. No fetus at that stage is viable. In late term abortions, which constitute a tiny fraction of the whole, even for those that do survive the procedure, if they are not healthy, which is virtually always the case, would it be better to put them on life support? What if their abnormalities are extremely painful? Would you really subject a newborn to hours, days, even weeks of agony?

See the link I provided for Crystal above, comment #111.
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CLAX1911 said:
no it makes perfect sense. Planned Parenthood whether you like it or not is very political. I understand they have to be to survive I'm just stating facts. and there are people that left that organization and speak out against it. if you want to tell me that they are political activist I will agree with you

I don't understand the argument you're making here.
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As I posted before there are only 4 clinic doctors who 3 clinics in the United States that perform abortions past 21 weeks.

Planned Parent is not affiliated with those private clinics. oBs and GYNs from all over the United stadtes who have patients that have n9n viable fetuses or who would suffer itrreparable damage to a major bodily function if the pregnancy continued recommend one of those doctors/clinics.

By law in any clinic abortion a 21 week or older fetus the fetus has to be dead ( if not already dead a lethal injection is given) and the doctor cannot start induction of contractions until it is dead.

There are only the 4 doctors highly skilled enough, trained well enough and willing to perform the abortions past 21 weeks.

Hospitals are exempt and can induce labor on a non viable fetus without having to make sure there is no longer a heartbeat.
 
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Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

Bucky said:
Studies have proven that not being able to pay your bill decreases your IQ by 1 standard deviation. Imagine not being able to pay your bills and considering terminating a fetus!!

Your functional bandwidth decreases and more subjected to bad ideas and impulses.
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What are you trying to say?

Does this mean you are saying you have decades worth of unpaid bills?

I think the last time you brought up such things you tried to say that pregnancy makes a woman unable to make decisions....

I am seeing a theme.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

minnie616 said:
As I posted there are only 4 clinic doctors who 3 clinics in the United States that perform abortions past 21 weeks.

Planned Parent is not affiliated with those private clinics. oBs and GYNs from all over the United stadtes who have patients that have n9n viable fetuses or who would suffer itrreparable damage to a major bodily function if the pregnancy continued recommend one of those doctors/clinics.

By law in any clinic abortion a 21 week or older fetus the fetus has to be dead ( if not already dead a lethal injection is given) and the doctor cannot start induction of contractions until it is dead.

There are only the 4 doctors highly skilled enough, trained well enough and willing to perform the abortions past 21 weeks.

Hospitals are exempt and can induce labor on a non viable fetus without having to make sure there is no longer a heartbeat.
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I guess I don't understand the point you're making.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

CLAX1911 said:
I guess I don't understand the point you're making.
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The point is any fetus past 21 weeks must be dead before any extraction of the fetus starts..
And only one of three privately owned clinics performs abortions at or past 21 weeks.

The 2 youngest premature infants ever to survive were 21 weeks and 5 days and 21 weeks and 6 days gestation age.

So people who claim Planned Parenthoods abort viable fetuses are mistaken/wrong or are trying to spread false propaganda.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

minnie616 said:
The point is any fetus past 21 weeks must be dead before any extraction of the fetus starts..
And only one of three privately owned clinics performs abortions at or past 21 weeks.

The 2 youngest premature infants ever to survive were 21 weeks and 5 days and 21 weeks and 6 days gestation age.

So people who claim Planned Parenthoods abort viable fetuses are mistaken/wrong or are trying to spread false propaganda.
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Will for that to be true anybody who has come out of that organization and giving any testimony would have to be lying.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

CLAX1911 said:
Will for that to be true anybody who has come out of that organization and giving any testimony would have to be lying.
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Well, certainly if it is Abby Johnson.;) That woman can't even delete her facebook before she starts spreading lies.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

year2late said:
Well, certainly if it is Abby Johnson.;) That woman can't even delete her facebook before she starts spreading lies.
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I don't know who that is and I'm not so sure that she's lying. It seems like people say that when they have someone they view as a political adversary.
 
Re: Pro-Life extremists are taking us back to the dark ages

CLAX1911 said:
I don't know who that is and I'm not so sure that she's lying. It seems like people say that when they have someone they view as a political adversary.
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She was a Planned Parenthood worker who until the day she was disciplined for her work habits was a strong advocate for Planned Parenthood. On her facebook page she said she was a strong supporter.

Then she was disiplined for her work habits and magically remembered her epiphany about how she (not clinical staff) was witness to a horrible life changing ultrasound that happened during an abortion. Imagine that. Being a strong supporter for the organizations goals...getting disciplined for work habits and then after the fact having an epiphany of an ultrasound.

Now she is a spokesperson against Planned Parenthood.:2razz:
 
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