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What is the most realistic/pragmatic way to significantly decrease abortion rates?

There is none. It would require the moral rehabilitation of America. We'd have to turn back the clock to a pre-Sixties moral climate. To the Forties probably. Narcissism would have to be rooted out. Stupidity rolled back. None of this is going to happen.

The genie is out of the bottle.

There were an estimated 800,000 abortions per year ( even though they were illegal ,) in the early 1930s in the United States.

....the genie was never in the bottle.

By 2014 the CDC reported there were less than 700,000 abortions in the US even though our population was more than double the population of the 1930s.
 
There is none. It would require the moral rehabilitation of America. We'd have to turn back the clock to a pre-Sixties moral climate. To the Forties probably. Narcissism would have to be rooted out. Stupidity rolled back. None of this is going to happen.

The genie is out of the bottle.

Thank-you for bringing up genie in the bottle.

It reminded me of one of my posts I made here on the DP back in June 2013.

Well I was not an enthusiastic supporter of the so - called " sexual revolution ".

But I am a realist and there is no way to " put the genie back in the bottle ".

Therefore we need to find a practical , real solution , to reduce unwanted pregnancies, to help single parents become independent,
to find loving homes for the children who are caught in the CPS system.
 
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I think birth control and advice should be readily and confidentiality available.

I think the male contraceptive pill/patch is a good idea and should be developed.

Young people (and adults) should receive relationships education, with a psychological evidence-based (not religious) focus, to help them make informed choices about sex.

This would all likely reduce abortion rates. However I do not think that reducing abortion rates should be the driving reason for advancing these ideas.
 
I'm surprised to get such an egregious straw man from you.

That's the genesis of concern over abortion coming from the church - it's contraception AND murder. They disapprove of contraception, period, and have since they began.

You have made reference to the immorality enabled by contraception.

This thread is about how to best stop abortion from happening. People are going to continue having non-procreative sex for obvious reasons. Contraception makes abortion unnecessary.

Do you want people to stop having elective abortions? Trying to get them to accept your moral framework seems to be inefficient. If you just want to debate the idea, that's a different matter.
 
There were an estimated 800,000 abortions per year ( even though they were illegal ,) in the early 1930s in the United States....
That's quite an estimate seeing as there were 0 reported.
 
What liberals do. Teach sex education. Provide affordable access to birth control. it actually works. Look at Colorado, extensive program to provide free birth control and a huge drop in abortions and teen pregnancies

But many anti-abortion religious people don't care about any of that, they just want to push their religious beliefs on others. They want to score points with their god, which is complete garbage.
 
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That's the genesis of concern over abortion coming from the church - it's contraception AND murder. They disapprove of contraception, period, and have since they began.
So what? My arguments in this forum make no reference to religion. This is your hobbyhorse/

You have made reference to the immorality enabled by contraception.
I don't believe I've ever made such a reference. What makes you think I have?

This thread is about how to best stop abortion from happening. People are going to continue having non-procreative sex for obvious reasons. Contraception makes abortion unnecessary.
I know what the thread is about, and I put in my two cents worth early on.

Do you want people to stop having elective abortions? Trying to get them to accept your moral framework seems to be inefficient. If you just want to debate the idea, that's a different matter.
I'm chatting in an internet forum. That's the long and the short of what I'm about here. Mostly just dealing with poor reading skills, closed minds, and silliness.
 
But many anti-abortion religious people don't care about any of that, they just want to push their religious beliefs on others. They want to score points with their god, which is complete garbage.

Actually, you have a misconception here. I have yet to meet a pro-lifer that is against contraception and wants to force their religion on woman. Most pro-lifers just don't want to see innocent babies killed.

What do you think they would get out of forcing their religion on other woman? A waste of time and effort. And if they truly "forced" it, that would drive the frightened pregnant woman away, and she would probably end up having an abortion, which is not what the pro-lifer wanted in the first place.

Forcing Christianity on pregnant woman and bible thumping in front of them doesn't do any good. Most pro-lifers know this, and only a few messed up ones do it. There is always going to be a couple of idiots in every organization. That doesn't mean the entire organization is composed of idiots.

Naturally, most pro-lifers don't do this. There's two pro-life groups that I know of, (40 days for life, and Save the Storks) that do not support any violence against abortion clinics, abortion workers, and the woman getting the abortions. They sit outside the clinics and pray, and talk to the women if they want to talk. Save the Storks goes around the country in buses offering pregnant women free ultrasounds. 80% of woman that see their unborn child decide to carry it to term and give birth.

And there is your answer for lowering the abortion rates. Give woman free ultrasounds to see their unborn child and bond with it. EVERY woman should get to see her ultrasound before having an abortion. It should be made a requirement. Unfortunately, most abortion clinics I hear of don't let the women see their ultrasounds.

So my question is, what do you think pro-life people would get out of forcing their religion on women?
 
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There is none. It would require the moral rehabilitation of America.

The genie is out of the bottle.

Wrong again!

The abortion rates in the US have been decreasing every year, most substantially since the 1980s.

The genie has moved on....:)
 
I don't believe I've ever made such a reference. What makes you think I have?

It was in one of your threads, but it's a needle in a haystack unless I can think of a keyword.
 
I don't agree with a lot of things the Catholic Church does. Most Catholics are not real Christians because a lot of the stuff they say is not Biblical.

Though I should mention that 40 days for life is a Catholic group, I believe. But as far as I know, all they do is pray outside the clinics and talk to the women if they want to talk. They're friendly and don't force their religion on the women.
 
Wrong again!

The abortion rates in the US have been decreasing every year, most substantially since the 1980s.

The genie has moved on....:)

And as improvements in long term contraception occur as well as access to those forms for those most at risk for abortions (working poor).....the numbers should plummet.
 
I don't agree with a lot of things the Catholic Church does. Most Catholics are not real Christians because a lot of the stuff they say is not Biblical.

Though I should mention that 40 days for life is a Catholic group, I believe. But as far as I know, all they do is pray outside the clinics and talk to the women if they want to talk. They're friendly and don't force their religion on the women.

So it's ok for you to disagree with the Catholic Church but the rest of us are supposed to accept your opinion?

Are you not trying to force your religion on all American women, period? (or, you would if you could, correct?)
 
Actually, you have a misconception here. I have yet to meet a pro-lifer that is against contraception and wants to force their religion on woman.

I would refer you to the multiple debates on birth control being included in ACA. They were pretty heated and emphatically many were against contraception...not just against it being included in ACA , but to birth control in general. I was on another board at the time and I would guess that the responses here were pretty similar.
 
I don't agree with a lot of things the Catholic Church does. Most Catholics are not real Christians because a lot of the stuff they say is not Biblical.

:roll:

Though I should mention that 40 days for life is a Catholic group, I believe. But as far as I know, all they do is pray outside the clinics and talk to the women if they want to talk. They're friendly and don't force their religion on the women.

Although many Catholics now participate in 40 Days for Life, it's not a Catholic organization. It began as the Coalition for Life, and here is its backstory: About - Coalition for Life - Bryan/College Station, TX
 
No. What do I get out of doing that?

So then what is your reason, besides your religious belief, that elective abortion is wrong? Please explain and as a Christian, I know what a sin it is to deny God.
 
There were an estimated 800,000 abortions per year ( even though they were illegal ,) in the early 1930s in the United States.
Ehh... source? duh.png

There is none. It would require the moral rehabilitation of America. We'd have to turn back the clock to a pre-Sixties moral climate. To the Forties probably. Narcissism would have to be rooted out. Stupidity rolled back. None of this is going to happen.

The genie is out of the bottle.
While I agree we'll never get back to pre-1960's abortion rates, @maquiscat is correct to point out that the number of abortions, both in absolute numbers and in ratio to live births, has steadily (albeit slowly) declined over the decades.

I have no doubt all the items in the OP have had a positive impact in this regard (excepting the first, since it isn't in force). Just because we can never hope to approach the ideal doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't strive for further declines. We are talking about the deaths of millions of unborn children and future citizens, after all.

Most women who choose abortion are not in a stable in a perceived stable enough postion to care for a child (or another child) let alone a stable enough position to be pregnant.
I've read that women who choose to abort broadly fall into one of two categories: they're either in a compromised emotional state, as you contend, and acting out of a sense of desperation or panic; or they're completely indifferent to the fate of the child, which is common among women who use abortion as birth control.

I've also read that the decline of this latter cohort (women using abortion as birth control) is where most of the post-1970's gains have been made. Apparently it wasn't usual back in the early 1970's for young (high-school-aged, college-aged) women to casually discuss abortions along with their sexual exploits. Multiple abortions were commonplace. Today, because of the resistance to and stigma against abortion (as a bit of Godly light in a very dark era indeed), relatively few women hold such casual attitudes towards the practice. (The operative word here being "relatively", as casual attitudes towards abortion are still a regrettably common thing.)

History. Abortion has been steadily on the decline since 1980 or so. Being legal is working.
Post hoc fallacy. Abortion rates exploded in the "free love" 1960's and 1970's and have slowly been recovering since due to a litany of factors. Little or none of that decline may be due to legalization.

Statistically, it's hard to prize out the effects of legalization since it occurs in conjunction with so many other factors. It also has variable efficacy depending on how epidemic a particular act is. Bans are typically only effective when the act they target is/would be practiced by only a very small percentage of the total population. However, as long as this threshold isn't crossed, they're inexpensive, effective, and (of critical importance) they help to suppress growth/normalization of the illegal behaviour.

I will be curious as to why you believe your choice is the most realistic and pragmatic.
Why do we have to just choose one? Why not a combination, or all of them simultaneously?

Some of them are cheaper, some have greater total effect, some are personal and some are governmental. No one stands out in all possible regards.
 
They sit outside the clinics and pray, and talk to the women if they want to talk. Save the Storks goes around the country in buses offering pregnant women free ultrasounds. 80% of woman that see their unborn child decide to carry it to term and give birth.

And there is your answer for lowering the abortion rates. Give woman free ultrasounds to see their unborn child and bond with it. EVERY woman should get to see her ultrasound before having an abortion. It should be made a requirement. Unfortunately, most abortion clinics I hear of don't let the women see their ultrasounds.
This strikes me as a wise approach.

Make the child real to the mother. Offer counsel. Help frightened mothers calm down, plan, and regain perspective.

I'd never heard of "Save the Storks" before this.
 
This strikes me as a wise approach.

Make the child real to the mother. Offer counsel. Help frightened mothers calm down, plan, and regain perspective.

I'd never heard of "Save the Storks" before this.

Are you claiming that women are stupid, child-like, and dont know what is occuring in their bodies? That we cant make good decisions despite stress or tough circumstances (but strangers know their lives better? :roll:)

That we all missed health ed and sex ed and biology in several years of our education?

Women dont need BS rainbows blown up their skirts about how they will get so much support from the community and welfare and food stamps and that they wont lose their jobs and end up in a dangerous neighborhood...with their other kids or dependents as well. Yes, most women that have abortions already have at least one kid. THen they might be responsible for elderly parents, disabled siblings, etc. The point is...strangers dont know what their circumstances are and dont care...all they care about is another birth.

OTOH, there are those of that believe more in quality of life...for women, for society, for all babies once born....that quantity.
 
Are you claiming that women are stupid, child-like, and dont know what is occuring in their bodies? That we cant make good decisions despite stress or tough circumstances (but strangers know their lives better? :roll:)

That we all missed health ed and sex ed and biology in several years of our education?

Women dont need BS rainbows blown up their skirts about how they will get so much support from the community and welfare and food stamps and that they wont lose their jobs and end up in a dangerous neighborhood...with their other kids or dependents as well. Yes, most women that have abortions already have at least one kid. THen they might be responsible for elderly parents, disabled siblings, etc. The point is...strangers dont know what their circumstances are and dont care...all they care about is another birth.

XDDDDD I'm sorry, but I just can't take your reasoning anymore. You are willing to defend the murder of the unborn to such hazardous points that you call non-judgemental organizations "BS" for merely giving woman free ultrasounds. You obviously don't know what Save the Storks is.

Aren't you the one that is for more sex education and more education on the topic itself? For wanting to lower abortion rates you sure bash a lot of people that actually lower abortion rates. I already told you that 80% of abortions are avoided via simple ultrasounds allowing the mother to actually see her little baby. XD And now you go and accuse these organizations of making fun of woman's intelligence.

You obviously just want to have a fight here and not actually find a common goal, (which would be lowering abortion rates). You seem to detest and hate the pro-life side so much that when they do things that you should appreciate, you still scratch in the dust to find a way to bash them.

I'm done. x))))
 
Are you claiming that women are stupid, child-like, and dont know what is occuring in their bodies?
A woman doesn't have to be stupid, childlike, or ignorant of what's occurring in her body to become panicked or desperate, or to lose perspective.

That we cant make good decisions despite stress or tough circumstances (but strangers know their lives better?)
"Good decisions" is subjective and dependent on one's priorities.

Moral decisions are not subjective. As abortion is inherently an immoral act, I'm claiming that many women do not make moral decisions in "stress[ful] or tough circumstances".

Moral culpability isn't limited to the mother only. If the father of the child impregnates a woman without knowing and/or caring about her willingness to bear and raise a child, or if he refuses to support and parent his child, or if he otherwise puts the mother into a position where she's more likely to abort the child, he's equally morally culpable for the death of the child.

That we all missed health ed and sex ed and biology in several years of our education?
Regrettably, education is by no means a flawless bulwark against reckless, foolish, dangerous, or gravely harmful/immoral behaviour.

Women dont need BS rainbows blown up their skirts about how they will get so much support from the community and welfare and food stamps and that they wont lose their jobs and end up in a dangerous neighborhood...with their other kids or dependents as well.
Evidently many do.

Yes, most women that have abortions already have at least one kid. THen they might be responsible for elderly parents, disabled siblings, etc. The point is...strangers dont know what their circumstances are and dont care...all they care about is another birth.
Pro-life advocates assert different moral priorities than pro-choice advocates. The former regard every unborn child as a fellow human being and future citizen, regardless of development or parentage. Preserving the life of the child supersedes every other moral imperative, including all those that would contraindicate carrying the child to term (with the possible exception of the death of the mother).

This set of moral priorities doesn't mean that pro-life advocates "dont [sic] know what [expectant mothers'] circumstances are and dont [sic] care", just as most pro-choice advocates (I should hope) do give some regard to the life of the child.

OTOH, there are those of that believe more in quality of life...for women, for society, for all babies once born....that quantity.
If a higher mean quality of life superseded the moral imperative to preserve life itself, policies ranging from eugenics to class genocide to extirpation of the infirm and elderly would make perfect sense.

Instead, I stress the importance of maximizing the quality of life for our fellow man while unconditionally respecting this moral imperative.

A significant part of this is "support from the community", "welfare and food stamps", helping mothers to not "lose their jobs and end up in a dangerous neighborhood", etc. All the things you deride as 'blowing BS rainbows up their skirts'.

It's a fine line to walk because many pro-lifers, myself included, want to make it easier for reluctant mothers to respect their moral obligations while at the same time maintaining strong and unequivocal opposition to the behaviours that lead to unwanted pregnancies. It's hard to shield others from the consequences of their irresponsible and/or immoral behaviours without inadvertently facilitating the proliferation of those behaviours. If you see a pro-lifer adopting an intractable "life is tough; deal with it" stance, it's most likely for this reason, not because they heartlessly seek misery qua misery, as was Ayn Rand's contention.
 
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