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Non-religious Arguments Against Abortion

J

JPUK

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I am keen to hear any arguments against abortion that might convince a non-religious person that abortion is wrong. For example, arguments based on ethics, science, secular moral philosophy and reasoning. I'd also be keen to hear views on timeframes (conception, 12 weeks etc.), again on a non-religious basis.
 
Just to start off by giving my own position. I am relatively open minded to exploring this issue further but as it stands I am pro-choice but think that the limit should be quite a bit shorter than 24 weeks. But I am a man and no expert on this debate, either from a scientific or moral standpoint. I'm keen to explore this debate further and enhance my understanding. I'm non-religious.
 
JPUK said:
Just to start off by giving my own position. I am relatively open minded to exploring this issue further but as it stands I am pro-choice but think that the limit should be quite a bit shorter than 24 weeks. But I am a man and no expert on this debate, either from a scientific or moral standpoint. I'm keen to explore this debate further and enhance my understanding. I'm non-religious.
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What changes at 24 weeks that makes it wrong then but okay before?
 
I don't know. The reason I referred to the 24 week number is because that's current UK law (where I live). I feel like it should be less than that, but I admittedly have no reasonable basis for this 'feeling' and am really keen to understand the arguments. Particularly from a non-religious perspective because I have struggled to find arguments against abortion that are not fuelled by religious reasoning.
 
JPUK said:
I don't know. The reason I referred to the 24 week number is because that's current UK law (where I live). I feel like it should be less than that, but I admittedly have no reasonable basis for this 'feeling' and am really keen to understand the arguments. Particularly from a non-religious perspective because I have struggled to find arguments against abortion that are not fuelled by religious reasoning.
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If the religion is true, then why shouldn't I use religious arguments?
 
phattonez said:
If the religion is true, then why shouldn't I use religious arguments?
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Well it just wouldn't be helpful to me - I'm not religious.
 
JPUK said:
Well it just wouldn't be helpful to me - I'm not religious.
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Not an answer. If the religion is true, then why wouldn't I use religious arguments? Should I not use appeals to truth?
 
phattonez said:
Not an answer. If the religion is true, then why wouldn't I use religious arguments? Should I not use appeals to truth?
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Of course you can use religious arguments. I don't mean to say that you can't or shouldn't. But in this thread I was keen to know if anyone had any non-religious arguments against abortion, based on moral philosophy, reasoning or science.
 
JPUK said:
Of course you can use religious arguments. I don't mean to say that you can't or shouldn't. But in this thread I was keen to know if anyone had any non-religious arguments against abortion, based on moral philosophy, reasoning or science.
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I've already alluded to one. If you think past 24 weeks is immoral, then why is before 24 weeks okay? What makes the act immoral?
 
phattonez said:
I've already alluded to one. If you think past 24 weeks is immoral, then why is before 24 weeks okay? What makes the act immoral?
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Because at this point, your moving towards the development of a baby human, and of course causing suffering or harm to another human is immoral. Moral philosophy is of course a very complex and evolving area and I'm really keen to hear different moral arguments on this subject. Like I said at the beginning, I don't have the answers and I don't have enough knowledge or expertise to have a firm position, but I'm interested.
 
JPUK said:
Because at this point, your moving towards the development of a baby human, and of course causing suffering or harm to another human is immoral. Moral philosophy is of course a very complex and evolving area and I'm really keen to hear different moral arguments on this subject. Like I said at the beginning, I don't have the answers and I don't have enough knowledge or expertise to have a firm position, but I'm interested.
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That's the argument. If it's wrong at 24 weeks, then it's wrong starting at conception unless you have any reason to believe otherwise.
 
phattonez said:
What changes at 24 weeks that makes it wrong then but okay before?
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How many elective abortions take place that late?

Answer: none

So your answer isnt valid unless you dont believe in abortion for medical reasons. Do you?
 
phattonez said:
Not an answer. If the religion is true, then why wouldn't I use religious arguments? Should I not use appeals to truth?
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Religion is not based on truth. It is purely faith based and besides religious arguments are not admissible in court.
 
phattonez said:
Not an answer. If the religion is true, then why wouldn't I use religious arguments? Should I not use appeals to truth?
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You can use all the religious arguments you want...and the really great thing about the pro-choice position is that any woman that shares your religious beliefs may choose abortion or not...based on her beliefs.

Otherwise, religious arguments are useless when it comes to the moral or legal aspects of religion. (All morality does not stem from religion, btw, it is conceived outside religion too, and since it's still subjective, can be supported morally, or not, outside of religion.)
 
phattonez said:
I've already alluded to one. If you think past 24 weeks is immoral, then why is before 24 weeks okay? What makes the act immoral?
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It's not immoral at any stage. No women choose abortion of healthy viable fetuses...why would they?

Why do you believe it's immoral from conception?
 
JPUK said:
I am keen to hear any arguments against abortion that might convince a non-religious person that abortion is wrong. For example, arguments based on ethics, science, secular moral philosophy and reasoning. I'd also be keen to hear views on timeframes (conception, 12 weeks etc.), again on a non-religious basis.
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  1. Whose uterus is it? Hers.
  2. Who, then, has the right to decide how and when that uterus holds a fetus? Her.
There ya go. Religion hasn't a damn thing to do with it.
 
Lursa said:
It's not immoral at any stage. No women choose abortion of healthy viable fetuses...why would they?
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A blatant falsehood.
 
phattonez said:
A blatant falsehood.
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Feel free to post sources for current, legal abortions that have taken place of healthy fetuses after 24 weeks.

Otherwise, you seem to be lying or pretending.
 
This is naturally a contentious topic and I sense that disagreements have already been established. But I am genuinely approaching this in good faith (for want of a better phrase!) and with that in mind, if anyone could help me sincerely in considering the moral balance of this difficult topic I would be truly grateful.
 
JPUK said:
This is naturally a contentious topic and I sense that disagreements have already been established. But I am genuinely approaching this in good faith (for want of a better phrase!) and with that in mind, if anyone could help me sincerely in considering the moral balance of this difficult topic I would be truly grateful.
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To be honest, you havent posted a new question. I have several arguments saved in OneNote to provide.

But I dont begrudge anyone with an open mind the opportunity to gain more insights into this issue and that includes me.
 
Lursa said:
To be honest, you havent posted a new question. I have several arguments saved in OneNote to provide.

But I dont begrudge anyone with an open mind the opportunity to gain more insights into this issue and that includes me.
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I did suspect that might be the case and I apologise for repeating a question. I'd love to take a look at your notes. This is such a difficult topic to consider because I think that, once you take the religious arguments away, both sides are coming at it from a genuinely good place.
 
JPUK said:
I don't know. The reason I referred to the 24 week number is because that's current UK law (where I live). I feel like it should be less than that, but I admittedly have no reasonable basis for this 'feeling' and am really keen to understand the arguments. Particularly from a non-religious perspective because I have struggled to find arguments against abortion that are not fuelled by religious reasoning.
Click to expand...

Article by the then-president of Pro-Life Humanists: Yes, There Are Pro-Life Atheists Out There. Here’s Why I’m One of Them | Hemant Mehta | Friendly Atheist | Patheos

About Pro-Life Humanists - Pro-Life Humanists
secularprolife
 
JPUK said:
I did suspect that might be the case and I apologise for repeating a question. I'd love to take a look at your notes. This is such a difficult topic to consider because I think that, once you take the religious arguments away, both sides are coming at it from a genuinely good place.
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It really depends on the basis for the discussion: legal, Constitutional (equality/rights), ethical/moral, biological (2 separate tracks), religious, etc.
 
nota bene said:
Article by the then-president of Pro-Life Humanists: Yes, There Are Pro-Life Atheists Out There. Here’s Why I’m One of Them | Hemant Mehta | Friendly Atheist | Patheos

About Pro-Life Humanists - Pro-Life Humanists
secularprolife
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I'm grateful to you for providing these links, which I have been reading. I have also watched some video lectures and undercover recordings. I live in the UK where there is practically no debate on abortion, and I always found it a bit of a weird thing about the US how they debate this, much like with guns and healthcare. I have always been pro choice. But I am so troubled and concerned by what I read and see.

Is it important or necessary to understand the graphic details of abortion in order to make an informed decision on the morality, and why/why not?

For those who are pro choice, what is the moral basis or rule being applied? Eg. is it being able to feel pain, or having the appearance of a baby etc
 
JPUK said:
I'm grateful to you for providing these links, which I have been reading. I have also watched some video lectures and undercover recordings. I live in the UK where there is practically no debate on abortion, and I always found it a bit of a weird thing about the US how they debate this, much like with guns and healthcare. I have always been pro choice. But I am so troubled and concerned by what I read and see.

Is it important or necessary to understand the graphic details of abortion in order to make an informed decision on the morality, and why/why not?

For those who are pro choice, what is the moral basis or rule being applied? Eg. is it being able to feel pain, or having the appearance of a baby etc
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What is important to note regarding the 'graphic details' of abortion is that they are used for eotionally manipulative reasons, rather than reality or fact-based reasons.

In some cases, pro-life supporters are uniformed on the actual procedures, in others, they use the graphic details dishonestly.

--97.5% of all abortions take place when the unborn is pea-sized or smaller is flushed painlessly from the womb.

--in later term abortions, by law, an anesthetic/lethal injection is used so there is no pain or awareness for the fetus.

--any dismembering of the already dead fetus is done to save the woman additional pain and internal damage.

--these late term abortions are rare and medically necessary, not elective. No such abortions are done electively.

--many pro-life supporters discuss abortion as if dismembering live fetuses in utero is the common abortion procedure and acknowledge no other.
 
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