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[W:293]Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

Killing a live human who has not committed a capital crime, is not involved in a war or act of terrorism or is invading and threatening anothers life is not wrong, killing a living child in the womb is murder and should be illegal except perhaps in extreme circumstances. An unborn child is certainly living.
Here'''s abortionist Willie Parker'''s incoherent argument against human equality | Minnesota Citizens Concerned for Life

Another one without a uterus wanting to dictate to those of us with one what we can or cannot do w/ the contents of ours.....
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

So someone who says he's 100 % certain that humans need oxygen to live is also a zealot in your book?

100% certainty means that there’s no room for even the possibility of being wrong. Without that possibility, there can be no reasonable discussion. There is only one party preaching to the other from high atop their pedestal.

Of this, I am 99% certain.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

IOW, you can't refute me. I understand and accept your concession.
I think jmotivator is saying that he does not wish to repeat the same things over and over to you.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

100% certainty means that there’s no room for even the possibility of being wrong.

False. Being 100 % certain of something is not the same as saying one does not allow for the possibility of being wrong.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

False. Being 100 % certain of something is not the same as saying one does not allow for the possibility of being wrong.

I think you need to check your math on that one
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

I think you need to check your math on that one

There is no math involved.

If I am 100 % certain that all humans need oxygen to live, I can hold this belief while simultaneously allow for the possibility that I could be wrong. I am very open to the idea of you presenting me one human who does not need oxygen to live, thus proving me wrong.
 
Hi. I just want to say the following:

1. Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human.
2. The deliberate killing of a live human is wrong.
3. There are laws that allow abortion.
4. These laws allow something wrong.
5. Therefore, these laws need to be changed.

Yes people, logic just happened. Believe it.

Killing an unwanted fetus growing inside of you is perfectly fine. It has no business being there.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

Plenty to refute in post # 397 about pregnancy being 'healthy.'

Yep. Pregnancy would probably kill me. I'm not going through it just because anti choicers think I should.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

Yep. Pregnancy would probably kill me.

Driving could probably kill you, too. Are you going to stop driving?
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

so how do you propose to grant personhood at conception without violating the mother's legal rights, the mothers subjective human rights if you believe in them (i dont know if you do and if you dont then i guess that point is meaningless) and making her a lesser, basically a human incubator when it comes to her vs the ZEF.

That's a more interesting question than I think you realize.

As I read your statement I reminded, again, that the reason you fight against the idea of personhood is because, deep down, you realize that if personhood is ever granted, right to life supersedes all those other expressed rights.

Your question actually encapsulates the whole problem underlying the Pro-Choice movement in my mind. The Pro-Choice movement doesn't fight to deny human rights to the unborn because there is a compelling argument to make for the claim that the unborn aren't human, far from it, instead they fight to deny the unborn human rights so that they can legally excuse killing them.

This simple truth was my breaking point nearly 30 years ago. I was in a discussion with fellow Pro-Choice people and we were discussing this very topic (personhood), and how the other side had called abortion a "holocaust" and how silly and hateful the argument was. Someone made the flippant remark that abortion is no different than killing a cow, and people have no problem with killing a cow. I'm not sure why it hit me so hard, but at that point a voice in my head shouted "But they aren't cows!" at which point I realized that there really was no sound scientific argument that could take the unborn human and explain them away as a heard animal, or even less in the minds of many of my fellows pro-choicers since many of them were vegans and would never kill an animal.

At that point I saw their arguments for what they were. They weren't seeking rational truth, they were rationalizing death. The whole anti-Personhood argument was suddenly too uncomfortably close to a genocide defense for me.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

IOW, you can't refute me. I understand and accept your concession.

Why would I refute you? Do you think "Religious arguments only work with religious people" is blowing anyone's philosophical skirts up? :roll:

I have spent, what, two or three days now locked in an abortion debate arguing the scientific side of abortion, the secular moral side and the religious side. If you want my opinion you can rewind, just jumping in the middle of a religious argument and acting like that is the entirety of my position is just an expression of your ignorance of my position, and I'm all full up on debate partners. If you want to know my position then click back a few pages and find the ground already covered

I'd suggest tracing back my debate with Vidi to its origins since that would likely answer your questions. If that doesn't answer your questions and you have something interesting to ask me then feel free to pick this discussion up again.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

That's a more interesting question than I think you realize.
As I read your statement I reminded, again, that the reason you fight against the idea of personhood is because, deep down, you realize that if personhood is ever granted, right to life supersedes all those other expressed rights.

Your question actually encapsulates the whole problem underlying the Pro-Choice movement in my mind. The Pro-Choice movement doesn't fight to deny human rights to the unborn because there is a compelling argument to make for the claim that the unborn aren't human, far from it, instead they fight to deny the unborn human rights so that they can legally excuse killing them.

This simple truth was my breaking point nearly 30 years ago. I was in a discussion with fellow Pro-Choice people and we were discussing this very topic (personhood), and how the other side had called abortion a "holocaust" and how silly and hateful the argument was. Someone made the flippant remark that abortion is no different than killing a cow, and people have no problem with killing a cow. I'm not sure why it hit me so hard, but at that point a voice in my head shouted "But they aren't cows!" at which point I realized that there really was no sound scientific argument that could take the unborn human and explain them away as a heard animal, or even less in the minds of many of my fellows pro-choicers since many of them were vegans and would never kill an animal.

At that point I saw their arguments for what they were. They weren't seeking rational truth, they were rationalizing death. The whole anti-Personhood argument was suddenly too uncomfortably close to a genocide defense for me.

WTH????
its almost like you read talking points from another website then just spew them here

what you wrote makes no sense to my question at all, its hilarious, but makes no sense.
theres not one answer in there just more factually wrong assumptions and failed strawmen. You are not good at all at guessing things and all your strawmen suck lol.

Ill ask you my question again and try to answer this time.
so how do you propose to grant personhood at conception without violating the mother's legal rights, the mothers subjective human rights if you believe in them (i dont know if you do and if you dont then i guess that point is meaningless) and making her a lesser, basically a human incubator when it comes to her vs the ZEF.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

There is no math involved.

If I am 100 % certain that all humans need oxygen to live, I can hold this belief while simultaneously allow for the possibility that I could be wrong. I am very open to the idea of you presenting me one human who does not need oxygen to live, thus proving me wrong.

Do all humans need the same amount of oxygen?
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

Do all humans need the same amount of oxygen?

This question is irrelevant. It doesn't matter that different people need different amounts of oxygen. The important thing is that they ALL need oxygen.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

WTH????
its almost like you read talking points from another website then just spew them here

what you wrote makes no sense to my question at all, its hilarious, but makes no sense.
theres not one answer in there just more factually wrong assumptions and failed strawmen. You are not good at all at guessing things and all your strawmen suck lol.

Who said I was answering your question? Who says your questions have to be answered? God knows you never go out of your way to answer other people's questions.

I was pointing out what is wrong with the question you asked.

Ill ask you my question again and try to answer this time.
so how do you propose to grant personhood at conception without violating the mother's legal rights, the mothers subjective human rights if you believe in them (i dont know if you do and if you dont then i guess that point is meaningless) and making her a lesser, basically a human incubator when it comes to her vs the ZEF.

I don't need to propose anything. I need to state my position on the unborn human's rights as I see them, and why I see them as worthy of human rights. How the laws fall after that is not up to me. Your argument, to me, is like a plantation owner asking what's to become of their rights if slaves are granted rights. My answer to your question, for the reasons I stated in my previous response, is this: I don't care.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

So someone who says he's 100 % certain that humans need oxygen to live is also a zealot in your book?

which means pretty much nothing because almost all live on earth is oxygen based.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

1.)Who said I was answering your question? Who says your questions have to be answered? God knows you never go out of your way to answer other people's questions.
I was pointing out what is wrong with the question you asked. I don't need to propose anything. I need to state my position on the unborn human's rights as I see them, and why I seem them as worthy of human rights. How the laws fall after that is not up to me.
2.) Your argument, to me, is like a plantation owner asking what's to become of their rights if slaves are granted rights.
3.) My answer to your question, for the reasons I stated in my response: I don't care.
1.) Ha! Thats what I thought. You cant answer.
2.) What argument?
3.) yes it seems evident you dont care about the woman's legal rights and treating her like a lesser. Which is fine by the way EVERYBODY does it on the abortion topic we all have to decides which entity is lesser/greater and when. Integrity and honesty is based on admitting that fact which many people have here prolife and pro choice and you seem to have just done that whether you meant to or not.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

which means pretty much nothing because almost all live on earth is oxygen based.

I never claimed one way or another about all life forms on earth.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

I don't care what someone else says (doesn't matter if they are experts or not). I want to hear what you personally think, what your line of reasoning is. If I wanted to read about MedicineNet, I could have just gone to their website.

And I agree with the textbook definition, hence me using it instead of a disease as that is what my personal view is.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

Pregnancy is a condition in the same way "physically fit" is a condition. People can avoid becoming it, and they may die trying to get there, but in the end it it healthy and promotes life.

actually it is a condition as it is an abnormal event for the body which can have very negative results. Physically fit is not a condition as it is not a condition, it is a state of physical fitness. One does not have swollen ankles, a lack of being able to lie properly, bend, leak out of your boobs or risk sudden death by being physically fit.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

actually it is a condition as it is an abnormal event for the body which can have very negative results.
How is pregnancy an "abnormal event"? And yes there are changes that happen to the body when pregnancy happens however this alone does not make pregnancy inherently abnormal.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

I never claimed one way or another about all life forms on earth.

Then why mention it. Fact however is that a fetus cannot breath, oxygen is provided for it because it cannot harvest it from the air around it. People who use oxygen are able to harvest it because they have functioning lungs. Big difference IMHO, but none of that is really interesting in determining alive or not alive.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

This question is irrelevant. It doesn't matter that different people need different amounts of oxygen. The important thing is that they ALL need oxygen.

No the important thing is that you’ve chosen some ridiculous point to claim your belief is not zealotry.
 
Re: Abortion is the deliberate killing of a live human

How is pregnancy an "abnormal event"? And yes there are changes that happen to the body when pregnancy happens however this alone does not make pregnancy inherently abnormal.

Is it a normal event for the body? Not really because it is causes huge changes to the body, both physically, mentally and from a hormonal standpoint. For a body it is not a normal thing to happen. A natural thing maybe but one with great changes and effects.
 
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