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Four Fallacies of Abortion

year2late said:
Show me where she has said a human fetus is not human. Show me where she says a human fetus is not alive.
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Oy! I've already shown this. To you, Lursa, and the one whose name, like G-d's, she doesn't want uttered.
This argument by attrition is something for the birds.
 
Angel said:
Law is "a human construct" as well. So what?
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So the majority have accepted abortion to be a lawful choice of the woman.


Angel said:
This is interesting. I disagree, and I have an argument I can produce. Do you have an argument to support this claim of yours?
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Simply observe nature, and the instances where without human involvement/contribution it has devastated life in the past, present, and likely so in the future, the extinction of species of plant and animal life which were unable to avoid/adapt what nature produces.
 
Individual said:
So the majority have accepted abortion to be a lawful choice of the woman.
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So where do you see me deny woman choice?
Individual said:
Simply observe nature, and the instances where without human involvement/contribution it has devastated life in the past, present, and likely so in the future, the extinction of species of plant and animal life which were unable to avoid/adapt what nature produces.
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So what? How is extinction an argument for the a-morality of nature?
 
Angel said:
The limits of your understanding are not an argument. She denies that the unborn child is a human being, whereas a human life is just that, the life of a human being.
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Being is a human construct to describe the nature or essence of a person.


We don’t talk about rabbit beings.
Or dog beings.
Or fish beings.
Or cat beings.
Or cow beings, etc.
 
minnie616 said:
Being is a human construct to describe the nature or essence of a person.


We don’t talk about rabbit beings.
Or dog beings.
Or fish beings.
Or cat beings.
Or cow beings, etc.
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Or man beings.

You are aware, I hope, that all your counterexamples involve coupling a noun with the noun "being"? That's why they sound awkward. Whereas an adjective, like human, alien, feline, canine, bovine, etc., roll mellifluously off the tongue. In short, your linguistic point is jejune.

And this:
Being is a human construct to describe the nature or essence of a person.
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is worse than jejune.

Now answer the question you ran from:
If you acknowledge that the unborn child is a human life -- which you did under pressure from your pals -- will you acknowledge what follows rationally from that premise: that abortion ends a human life?
 
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Angel said:
Yes, she never denied that it was living, but she was reluctant to acknowledge that it was human -- a human life being the point in contention. When under the pressure of her friends' support she acknowledge that it was a human life, I asked her to acknowledge then that abortion is the ending of a human life, and guess what? She vanished!
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Because your argument was stupid...
 
Angel said:
Or man beings.

You are aware, I hope, that all your counterexamples involve coupling a noun with the noun "being"? That's why they sound awkward. Whereas an adjective, like human, alien, feline, canine, bovine, etc., roll mellifluously off the tongue. In short, your linguistic point is jejune.

And this:

is worse than jejune.

Now answer the question you ran from:
If you acknowledge that the unborn child is a human life -- which you did under pressure from your pals -- will you acknowledge what follows rationally from that premise: that abortion ends a human life?
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We don’t have feline beings or canine beings either.

I told you it was human life with no pressure from my friends.

From post #132 of this thread:

minnie616 said:
I already made it clear on multiple posts in the last 7 years a fertilized human egg is human and is human life.
A zygote, an embryo, a fetus , is human and is human life.

I will not use the word “being” before the human is born.

I thought I had made that clear to you.
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I never ran from your question , in fact I had already answered it again in post #222

Since you seem to have missed it I will repost it.

Here it is:

year2late said:
Show me where she has said a human fetus is not human. Show me where she says a human fetus is not alive.
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Exactly. As I explained the fetus of two humans is human and it is alive until or unless it dies.

Sometimes a surgical abortion kills a fetus. Sometimes a natural death will kill the fetus within womb even though the pregnancy was very much wanted by the woman.

Sometimes doctors need to perform a surgical abortion to remove the dead fetus from the woman’s body.

Angel then accuses me of tap dancing around.

If a doctor performs an early delivery or c -section of a non viable or dead fetus it is still called an abortion and it is counted as an abortion and is included in the abortion stats.


From the following article:
Why not just c-section

First of all, a c-section for an early delivery of a non-viable fetus is still an abortion. #TheMoreYouKnow.

That people don’t grasp this is shocking.
And why these discussions are best left to experts who don’t impose their own religion on patients.
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....

And in her conclusion:

Sometimes a c-section is even an abortion. If you say otherwise you are ignorant, meaning unaware or unable to understand the medicine (if you are a doctor that makes you ill-trained),or a liar.
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Abortions at or after 24 weeks are sometimes needed medically. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. | Dr. Jen Gunter
 
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minnie616 said:
We don’t have feline beings or canine beings either.

I told you it was human life with no pressure from my friends.

From post #132 of this thread:

I never ran from your question , in fact I had already answered it again in post #222

Since you seem to have missed it I will repost it.

Here it is:


Exactly. As I explained the fetus of two humans is human and it is alive until or unless it dies.

Sometimes a surgical abortion kills a fetus. Sometimes a natural death will kill the fetus within womb even though the pregnancy was very much wanted by the woman.

Sometimes doctors need to perform a surgical abortion to remove the dead fetus from the woman’s body.

Angel then accuses me of tap dancing around.

If a doctor performs an early delivery or c -section of a non viable or dead fetus it is still called an abortion and it is counted as an abortion and is included in the abortion stats.


From the following article:

....

And in her conclusion:



Abortions at or after 24 weeks are sometimes needed medically. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong. | Dr. Jen Gunter
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Cut the rebop, madam. Does abortion end a human life?
 
Bodhisattva said:
Because your argument was stupid...
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And before your posts get filed under NO -- the infamous nugatory and otiose file from whence few posters are ever redeemed -- I'm going to give you a chance to walk the walk. What argument of mine do you consider "stupid" and why?

I'm rooting for you, man, hoping you actually thought before posting.
 
Angel said:
Cut the rebop, madam. Does abortion end a human life?
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Not when the human life is already dead from a natural cause or is non viable.

Sometimes a non viable fetus ( dead or dying ) fetus needs to be removed before it dies within the woman causing a life threatening septic infection to the woman or sometimes a second or third trimester miscarriages do not expelled the dead fetal tissue on its own and a therapeutic abortion is needed to #urgically remove the dead fetal tissue. If you do not understand than then you are ignorate or completely ignoring my posts and the links I have provided stating a c-section to remove a non viable fetus is still an abortion.
 
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Angel said:
Oy! I've already shown this. To you, Lursa, and the one whose name, like G-d's, she doesn't want uttered.
This argument by attrition is something for the birds.
Click to expand...

Ok, copy and paste the quotes where she said a human fetus is not human.

To my recollection you have never done this. And I know Minnie well enough to know that she believes a human fetus to be human.

Copy and paste. Just use the quote feature and highlight the specific text that makes you say this.
 
A fertilized egg is not a human being in my book, so your OP assertions aren't some kind of universal truth. Sorry.

A human thing need not be a being.
 
minnie616 said:
Not when the human life is already dead from a natural cause or is non viable.

Sometimes a non viable fetus ( dead or dying ) fetus needs to be removed before it dies within the woman causing a life threatening septic infection to the woman or sometimes a second or third trimester miscarriages do not expelled the dead fetal tissue on its own and a therapeutic abortion is needed to #urgically remove the dead fetal tissue. If you do not understand than then you are ignorate or completely ignoring my posts and the links I have provided stating a c-section to remove a non viable fetus is still an abortion.
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Doesn't it tell you something about yourself and your view on abortion that you are unable to answer a straightforward question in a straightforward way?
 
year2late said:
Ok, copy and paste the quotes where she said a human fetus is not human.

To my recollection you have never done this. And I know Minnie well enough to know that she believes a human fetus to be human.

Copy and paste. Just use the quote feature and highlight the specific text that makes you say this.
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This strategy of demanding reposts of replies I've already made is getting old fast.


#41
minnie616 said:
...
I did say that a fetus did not qualify as a human being....
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Angel said:
#448
https://www.debatepolitics.com/abortion/350312-abortion-101-a-49.html#post1069864689
...
#125
https://www.debatepolitics.com/abortion/350824-abortion-201-a-13.html#post1069840150
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Angel said:
The limits of your understanding are not an argument. She denies that the unborn child is a human being, whereas a human life is just that, the life of a human being.
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It is not a human being. That is FACT.
 
Angel said:
This strategy of demanding reposts of replies I've already made is getting old fast.


#41
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Epic fail. Human being (noun) is not the same as human (adjective).

We have already discussed that the definition of human being we are using is essentially “person”

The fact that you do not accept that definition is irrelevant.
 
Angel said:
So where do you see me deny woman choice?
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Then you agree, women should be allowed that choice, should they desire it?

Angel said:
So what? How is extinction an argument for the a-morality of nature?
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"This is interesting. I disagree, and I have an argument I can produce. Do you have an argument to support this claim of yours?"
That was my argument, and extinction was but a portion of it, now produce yours.
 
Angel said:
The limits of your understanding are not an argument. She denies that the unborn child is a human being, whereas a human life is just that, the life of a human being.
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Many of us deny the unborn is a human being, because we use the legally accepted definition of the word.

Why does it matter to you if we acknowledge it's human life and alive, but not a human being?

The first 2 are actually biological facts and provable. The third has semantic ambiguity. Is that why you bang on and on about it? Because you feel you cannot be nailed down in your failed arguments with the ambiguity?

So I'm really interested in a direct answer to the question in blue.
 
Angel said:
Doesn't it tell you something about yourself and your view on abortion that you are unable to answer a straightforward question in a straightforward way?
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It tells me that my medical knowledge and honesty about the abortion subject far outweighs your knowledge or honesty.

If the fetus is dead because of natural causes the abortion that is performed by the doctor to remove the dead fetus did not kill the human life in her womb. Natural causes caused that fetus to die ...not the abortion, used to extract it.

That you deny that is very telling.
 
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Where life begins is an endless argument and generally a moot point. Women will have abortions whether they are deemed immoral or illegal. The abortion rate can be higher in countries where it is illegal in countries where it is legal. If people want to stop abortions, they should support the wide distribution of a variety of birth control and comprehensive sex education in schools. But making them illegal doesn't stop them, it just threatens women's lives.
 
year2late said:
Epic fail. Human being (noun) is not the same as human (adjective).

We have already discussed that the definition of human being we are using is essentially “person”

The fact that you do not accept that definition is irrelevant.
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Your linguistic analysis is nugatory. "Human being" is a term made up of the adjective "human" and the noun "being."

The definition you and your activist pals are using is a legal fiction.

The fact that you don't understand that or don't accept that or can't otherwise wrap your mind around this topic is irrelevant.
 
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