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[W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

But opinions like yours that are not backed by anything is just plain stupidity.

Thank you for sharing your opinion. But my point still stands. An opinion that's been "backed up" is still an opinion and still subjective.
 
Really? Explain the difference. Are sperm part of something else? Are they not life?

Sperm can not be said to be alive (or dead, as the case might be). Only an organism can be alive (or dead).

Look, I am not the one who came up with the idea that sperm are cells, not organisms.
 
So, since my opinion has no moral weight according to you, then yours has none either.
Nice wasting my time with you.

You keep changing my words. "No more than" isn't the same as "none".

My argument "pretends"? A woman, like any moral agent, has the moral right to choose between alternative course of action. Where's the pretense in that?

Because the only "choice" you offer depends on the woman's life being existentially threatened by the process of bringing the child to term. Your formula cares nothing for the heath and well being of the mother and child post birth, or the health / well being of the zef prior to that.

What do you mean by "equivalence" here? Your counter-argument depends on this concept, so you need to unpack it.

Seems you explained the moral and ethical equivalence here:
That 13 year-old girls was a fertilized egg and will be a 93 year-old woman -- one and the same human life from beginning to end.
 
Life is life. Human life is human life. The distinctions you draw are based on your politics.

No, mine are based on practicality - an understanding of what is reasonable to expect.

I wish you luck demanding that women treat each and every fertilized egg with the reverence they would give a 13 year old daughter.

It might help to offer technology for finding those eggs.
 
Sperm can not be said to be alive (or dead, as the case might be).
Really? So fertilization results in a life made up from not living matter?

Only an organism can be alive
But you have no clue what is an organism.

Look, I am not the one who came up with the idea that sperm are cells, not organisms.
Nor you you have the slightest understanding what that means.
 
No, mine are based on practicality - an understanding of what is reasonable to expect.

I wish you luck demanding that women treat each and every fertilized egg with the reverence they would give a 13 year old daughter.

It might help to offer technology for finding those eggs.

Can you tell me why you think an entity that has human DNA is not a part of humanity.

Really? So fertilization results in a life made up from not living matter?
I did not say the sperm is not living matter. Read my post again.
But you have no clue what is an organism.
Whether I "have a clue" is not important. And the reason I did not try to define it is because I am not an expert on this, and further, you would not believe me anyway. If you really want to know what defines an organism, you should ask an authority on this matter.

Nor you you have the slightest understanding what that means.
Let's keep incivility out of this thread.
 
I did not say the sperm is not living matter.
You said that it is not alive. What does it mean then?

Whether I "have a clue" is not important.
But it is because you are attempting to use it as reasoning when you are clueless about it. That is dishonest in the least and demonstrates yet again that you are clueless.

And the reason I did not try to define it is because I am not an expert on this
Then why the **** do you offer it as evidence?

you would not believe me anyway.
I believe verifiable facts.

Let's keep incivility out of this thread.
Integrity in posting is part of civility and you clearly lack even a modicum of it.
 
You said that it is not alive. What does it mean then?
I meant exactly what I said. The state of being alive (or dead, as the case might be), only applies to organisms. Sperm cannot be said to be alive (or dead). But they can be said to be living matter.

But it is because you are attempting to use it as reasoning when you are clueless about it. That is dishonest in the least and demonstrates yet again that you are clueless.
Thank you for sharing your opinion, which is subjective (do you know what this means?)

Then why the **** do you offer it as evidence?
I am not aware that I tried to offer something as "evidence".

I believe verifiable facts.
What qualifies as an organism is not a matter of fact, but a matter of definition. But I see you like to throw the word "fact" around a lot.

Integrity in posting is part of civility and you clearly lack even a modicum of it.
1. Prove I have no integrity.
2. Prove having integrity is part of being civil.
3. Just because someone supposedly does not have integrity, it does not mean you can behave in an uncivil manner towards her.
 
You said that it is not alive. What does it mean then?

But it is because you are attempting to use it as reasoning when you are clueless about it. That is dishonest in the least and demonstrates yet again that you are clueless.

Then why the **** do you offer it as evidence?

I believe verifiable facts.

Integrity in posting is part of civility and you clearly lack even a modicum of it.

:applaud
 
You took that question literally, lol lol.

Please tell me you knew that I was mocking you.

I believe that would be against the rules.


I never said that. I said it's a live human.

If you insist on this lie, quote me.

Saying "a human" is the same as "a human being".
 
I believe that would be against the rules.
Then a lot of posters in this forum should be infracted, too. I have seen that thread created by Angel. A lot of pro-choicers were making fun of him. Maybe not you personally but quite a few from your side.

But this is not even important. The important thing is that when people tell you something, you like to say "sez who", this is very childish and does not serve to further the discussion along. Do you realize this?

Saying "a human" is the same as "a human being".
To you only. To the rest of us who actually have a good grasp of English, it's not the same.
 
I meant exactly what I said. The state of being alive (or dead, as the case might be), only applies to organisms. Sperm cannot be said to be alive (or dead). But they can be said to be living matter.
You are babbling incoherently only further demonstrating ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Thank you for sharing your opinion
Not opinion, fact.

I am not aware that I tried to offer something as "evidence".
Because you have no clue what you are talking about.

What qualifies as an organism is not a matter of fact, but a matter of definition.
What the **** is that supposed to mean? Something either is ir is not something and either case becomes fact once established.

But I see you like to throw the word "fact" around a lot.
And you avoid it at all costs.

Prove I have no integrity.
Your post are ample evidence.
 
Then a lot of posters in this forum should be infracted, too. I have seen that thread created by Angel. A lot of pro-choicers were making fun of him. Maybe not you personally but quite a few from your side.

Then report them.

But this is not even important. The important thing is that when people tell you something, you like to say "sez who", this is very childish and does not serve to further the discussion along. Do you realize this?

No, it is not childish. It's basically asking for proof.


To you only. To the rest of us who actually have a good grasp of English, it's not the same.

Funny how you demand civility from others but you act uncivil toward others....
 
Then report them.

Ugh. Sometimes I really don't think you even comprehend what I am saying.

I am NOT saying we should infract those posters. My point was that mocking other posters is not against the rules here.

No, it is not childish. It's basically asking for proof.
No, it only makes sense to ask for proof when people make claims that need to be backed up. But with you, you say "sez who" when people tell you things that are commonly understood social conventions or things that are known to most adults but which are nevertheless not explicitly written down. This is childish. It's like telling a child it's bad manner to pick his nose in public and he says, "sez who?". You are him.

unny how you demand civility from others but you act uncivil toward others....
Ok, you have a point. So allow me to retract my statement. Instead, I will simply tell you, that you are wrong to think "human" means "human being".
 
You are babbling incoherently only further demonstrating ignorance and lack of knowledge.

Not opinion, fact.

Because you have no clue what you are talking about.

What the **** is that supposed to mean? Something either is ir is not something and either case becomes fact once established.

And you avoid it at all costs.

Your post are ample evidence.

Haha, you can't tell fact and definition apart.
 
So how is "member of the human race" different from "part of humanity"? What is "humanity" to you?

Humanity is totality of the human race. Same thing. A human zygote, egg, fetus or embryo is not a member of the set.
 
Humanity is totality of the human race. Same thing. A human zygote, egg, fetus or embryo is not a member of the set.

Not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that the ZEF is not part of the human race, despite the fact they carry human DNA?
 
Not sure what you are saying. Are you saying that the ZEF is not part of the human race, despite the fact they carry human DNA?

Yes, that is correct. ZEFs aren't human beings. This is where you, angel and probably a lot of the anti-abortion crowd are using definitions that aren't the norm, trying to expand the set to include the class (zefs) into the group human beings.
 
Yes, that is correct. ZEFs aren't human beings. This is where you, angel and probably a lot of the anti-abortion crowd are using definitions that aren't the norm, trying to expand the set to include the class (zefs) into the group human beings.

Except nobody said "human beings". Both Angel and I say the unborn are a part of humanity. And then you started going on and on about how they aren't, despite the fact they carry human DNA.

Do you think the unborn are dogs, or cats, or pine trees, or some kind of mineral?
 
Angel didnt say that a 9 month old fetus is "equivalent" to a fertilized egg, though. He said "humanity of the unborn", which is completely correct. The unborn IS part of humanity, because it carries human DNA.

He made exactly no distinction between a fertilized egg and a 9 month old fetus. You just wrote it yourself.

Are you not clear on the meaning of those words either?
 
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