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[W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

year2late said:
So if the context (which I have repeated in other threads) is a baby born alive after a late term abortion attempt.....

Most post viability abortions in the US are done because of severe health issues of the fetus. Prenatal diagnosis through ultrasounds, genetic testing, etc has lead them to abortion.
So....in context...if a fetus is diagnosed with catastrophic health conditions...and an abortion is attempted at 7 months (and fails)...now the baby born is with the same catastrophic conditions AND prematurity. So, if this is the context......how does that change anything?

So, clearly in my quote, he has clearly stated that a "discussion would ensue".
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My impression is that he is against that discussion, period. So where would that leave him? Being against current laws allowing the same decisions for preemies and newborns in the same terrible situations. Once they get into this, the issue is deeper than, "OMG they're going to let that baby die!" and they end up backpeddling...or avoiding an answer period.

To me it's win-win...showing compassion for the parents and infant at a very difficult time.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

minnie616 said:
As I said , Kermit Gosnell had no problem breaking laws.
It is my personal belief he was mentally ill.

We have no idea if the women even knew they were more 20 weeks pregnant.

Gosnell seemed to prey on uneducated women.
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Exactly, Minnie. I'd like to know why those women chose to abort and why they went to Gosnell.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
When the unborn child is as developed as the one that looked like it was a new born, it's difficult to believe that the woman did not know she was pregnant.
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There are women who don't know they are pregnant until they are in labour.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
I am always in favor of providing comfort to all who need it.

Killing one person for the convenience of another does not seem to fall into any of the categories you describe.
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So then you do not object to the governor's statement where he was describing palliative/comfort care. There's nothing convenient about compassionate release of an individual of any age....it is in their best interests. Adults make the decisions for themselves, parents make that painful decision for their minor children.

Words have meanings, no matter how you try to jumble them to avoid looking like a hypocrite. The bold indicates you support palliative/comfort care tho....
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
I also agree that it is legal.

I just have a problem with ending human life.

I think we have, once again, beat this dead horse into the ground.

With respects, I will leave this conversation.
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Ah....that is a display of moral cowardice we havent seen here in awhile.

You do politicians proud! I think you posted quite enough for your true stance to be clear but it would have shown some backbone to actually stand up for your position clearly and on point.
 
Re: Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

maquiscat said:
And not a single thing there proved that personhood is a legal fiction. As noted, the only legal fiction is, like adulthood, creating an artificial legal line when the transition into that state occurs. You defined legal fiction. Good for you. Now you still have to show how that applies to personhood.

Also, you wrongly included Scarbaholic's quote of "it is fact". That post was addressing what the VA governor said and supposedly meant, and was not dealing with the legal fiction/personhood issue.

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
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Personhood is an abstraction from the set of persons, and whether abstractions actually exist is a philosophical question that goes back to Plato and remains unresolved to this day.
You and abortion law take that abstraction as marking out something settled and real and use it to exclude a subset of the set of persons from which the abstraction was drawn in the first place. You and the law are relying on a legal fiction -- the respectable name for a lie embraced for expediency.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

Lursa said:
:lamo

I didnt say legal fictions didnt exist...I just wrote that the one you claimed *in your opinion* was not one :mrgreen:
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See #456
 
Re: Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

Angel said:
Personhood is an abstraction from the set of persons, and whether abstractions actually exist is a philosophical question that goes back to Plato and remains unresolved to this day.
You and abortion law take that abstraction as marking out something settled and real and use it to exclude a subset of the set of persons from which the abstraction was drawn in the first place. You and the law are relying on a legal fiction -- the respectable name for a lie embraced for expediency.
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So by this logic adulthood is a legal fiction, an abstraction whose existence is a philosophical question.

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

Angel said:
See #456
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:lamo :lamo

Personhood is no more an abstraction than morality! (Or...both are!)

Both are human constructs tho.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

minnie616 said:
As I said , Kermit Gosnell had no problem breaking laws.
It is my personal belief he was mentally ill.

We have no idea if the women even knew they were more 20 weeks pregnant.

Gosnell seemed to prey on uneducated women.
Click to expand...



code1211 said:
When the unborn child is as developed as the one that looked like it was a new born, it's difficult to believe that the woman did not know she was pregnant.

Gosnell's clinic was in a bad part of town. He does seem to hold a different view of the sanctity of life than most people, let alone doctors, are believed to hold.
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I said the woman may not have known she was more than 20 weeks pregnant.
I think she was probably aware she was pregnant just not how far along in the pregnancy she was.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

Scrabaholic said:
There are women who don't know they are pregnant until they are in labour.
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An old roomate brought his GF into the hospital with severe stomach cramps. Turns out she was in labor. Massive shock to all concerened. She was/is a rather petite girl, yet she never appeared pregnant.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
If my doctor commits criminal acts, then he should be held to account.

In the case of abortion, most abortions are entirely legal and completely immoral.
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So if you perceive abortion to be immoral...please do not get one.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
I am always in favor of providing comfort to all who need it.

Killing one person for the convenience of another does not seem to fall into any of the categories you describe.
Click to expand...

So what Northam described was palliative care.... so not killing.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

Lursa said:
:lamo :lamo

Personhood is no more an abstraction than morality! (Or...both are!)

Both are human constructs tho.
Click to expand...
Sating nothing as if saying something seems to be the hallmark of your posts.
 
Re: Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

maquiscat said:
So by this logic adulthood is a legal fiction, an abstraction whose existence is a philosophical question.
...
Click to expand...
Not a particularly philosophical question, but a legal fiction, to be sure.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

Angel said:
Sating nothing as if saying something seems to be the hallmark of your posts.
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I was agreeing with you, so I guess your post applies to you as well :mrgreen:
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

Lursa said:
I was agreeing with you, so I guess your post applies to you as well :mrgreen:
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Agreeing? You could've fooled me.
You did!
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

minnie616 said:
Northam would know about the law.

And would know the Born Alive Act would overrule any State Law would be passed.

He was describing the 2 lawful options when an infant is born alive.
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Killing a living infant after birth is legal? That's interesting.

Is there a sun set on when killing an already born person converts from abortion into murder? Is it minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Years? Does it EVER become illegal?
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

Scrabaholic said:
And he said NOTHING about killing a born child.
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What was the state of the child that he was talking about that was being made comfortable?

I foolishly assumed it had been born.

Was he suggesting wrapping this fetus in swaddling clothes inside the womb?
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

Scrabaholic said:
There are women who don't know they are pregnant until they are in labour.
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I suppose you're right.

It's a sad commentary on our society's nurturing.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

minnie616 said:
I said the woman may not have known she was more than 20 weeks pregnant.
I think she was probably aware she was pregnant just not how far along in the pregnancy she was.
Click to expand...

The fear and confusion of many is a tragedy.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

year2late said:
So if you perceive abortion to be immoral...please do not get one.
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LOL! I won't.

Do you realize that I support the legal availability of abortion for all?

I also support the legal availability of all sorts of things not related to abortion.

In ALL cases, proper labeling is a good thing so folks know what they are buying.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

year2late said:
So what Northam described was palliative care.... so not killing.
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This is a perversion of that term.

Palliative care seems to be intended to provide comfort for the very unpleasant sensations experienced during the prolonged treatment of illnesses like cancer. It's not like Hospice Care. It is longer term. Maybe years.

This seems less like palliative care and more like a last meal.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

minnie616 said:
Abortions only happen before birth .....not after.

You seem to forgetting we have a 2004 Federal law known as the Born Alive Act.

Any premie/ infant that is born alive is a protected citizen and as such 2 actions can be offered the parent of a born alive infant ; either extraordinary medical measures or palliative care.
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code1211 said:
Me forgetting about or not knowing about any law, I didn't know about the law you cite, does not increase or decrease the need for the law, the adherence to that law or the number of times that law is broken.

Did Northam reference that law in his comments? Why do you bring it up?
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minnie616 said:
Northam would know about the law.

And would know the Born Alive Act would overrule any State Law would be passed.

He was describing the 2 lawful options when an infant is born alive.
Click to expand...


code1211 said:
Killing a living infant after birth is legal? That's interesting.

Is there a sun set on when killing an already born person converts from abortion into murder? Is it minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Years? Does it EVER become illegal?
Click to expand...

I never said killing a born infant is legal and neither did Northham.

I have said many times in this thread the two options were
1. Extraordinary medical measures or.
2. palliative care.

From the 2002 Born-Alive Infants Protection Act:

The Born-Alive Infants Protection Act of 2002 ("BAIPA" Pub.L. 107–207, 116 Stat. 926, enacted August 5, 2002, 1 U.S.C. § 8) is an Act of Congress. It extends legal protection to an infant born alive after a failed attempt at induced abortion. It was signed by President George W. Bush.

From Wiki


Interpretation of the Bill

Defines a "Born alive infant" as "Person, human being, Child, Individual".

Acknowledges human rights of any child born within the United States.
"Born Alive" is defined as the complete expulsion of an infant at any stage of development that has a heartbeat, pulsation of the umbilical cord, breath, or voluntary muscle movement, no matter if the umbilical cord has been cut or if the expulsion of the infant was natural, induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.
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Read more:

Born-Alive Infants Protection Act - Wikipedia
 
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re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

minnie616 said:
I never said killing a born infant is legal and neither did Northham.

I have said many times in this thread the two options were
1. Extraordinary medical measures or.
2. palliative care.

From the 2002 Born-Alive Infants Protection Act:

The Born-Alive Infants Protection Act of 2002 ("BAIPA" Pub.L. 107–207, 116 Stat. 926, enacted August 5, 2002, 1 U.S.C. § 8) is an Act of Congress. It extends legal protection to an infant born alive after a failed attempt at induced abortion. It was signed by President George W. Bush.

From Wiki



Read more:

Born-Alive Infants Protection Act - Wikipedia
Click to expand...

You are free to rationalize whatever may be the most comforting interpretation of Northam's comments made in response to questions on the newly proposed Abortion Bill in Virginia.
 
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