• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

[W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

year2late said:
Which of his words are you speaking to....I will repost Gov. Northam's words again....(Northam is a pediatric neurologist as well as Governor)


"If a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen. The infant would be delivered. The infant would be kept comfortable. The infant would be resuscitated if that’s what the mother and the family desired, and then a discussion would ensue between the physicians and the mother'

So....you post his words that lead you down YOUR path...NOTHING in those words speak to the act of ending a person's life.
Click to expand...

Do you know what context means?
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
Okay. So you aren't exactly sure what it is that you think I may have said. That's okay.

What is it that YOU are trying to say?
Click to expand...

Your point was that due to the exactly symmetry in DNA between a fetus, and its birthed, developed byproduct...a child, they are there for equal, or the same, human beings, each deserving of the rights afforded the other.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
You will need to help me out on this.

When discussing the end of life, what exactly is being discussed if it's not the end of life?
Click to expand...

Discussing end of life issues is not the same and ending someones life.

Palliative care does not "end their life" it is a treatment option that allows the patient and family to be more comfortable.

It is a HUGE distinction.

Now, in physician assisted suicide and euthanasia....specific measures are taking to assure that a patient dies at a particular time. That is leaps and bounds away from making a baby with catastrophic health issues comfortable.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
If a person is in a discussion about abortion, he is talking about abortion.

This is pretty basic stuff.

When Romeo met Juliet, he was talking about pilgrims, hands, windows, the Sunrise and just about anything except his lust for Juliet.

His meaning was absolutely clear to anyone with any capacity for thought. That meaning has been absolutely clear for about 400 years. Context.
Click to expand...

Abortions only happen before birth .....not after.

You seem to forgetting we have a 2004 Federal law known as the Born Alive Act.

Any premie/ infant that is born alive is a protected citizen and as such 2 actions can be offered the parent of a born alive infant ; either extraordinary medical measures or palliative care.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
Do you know what context means?
Click to expand...

So if the context (which I have repeated in other threads) is a baby born alive after a late term abortion attempt.....

Most post viability abortions in the US are done because of severe health issues of the fetus. Prenatal diagnosis through ultrasounds, genetic testing, etc has lead them to abortion.
So....in context...if a fetus is diagnosed with catastrophic health conditions...and an abortion is attempted at 7 months (and fails)...now the baby born is with the same catastrophic conditions AND prematurity. So, if this is the context......how does that change anything?

So, clearly in my quote, he has clearly stated that a "discussion would ensue".
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
Kermit Gosnell was a doctor.

Kermit Gosnell did precisely what you say doctors do not do for women who requested precisely what you imply no woman would request.

This is reality in the real world and actually has happened. It is very likely continuing to happen. Why are you denying it?

FLASHBACK Abortionist Gosnell: 'This Baby Is Big Enough to Walk Around With Me or Walk Me to the Bus Stop'
Click to expand...

Kermit Gosnell commited a crime. Most prochoicers I know are disgusted by his actions and are glad he is behind bars.

Next.

Again, he rightfully was convicted of a crime.

I am curious, do you hold your own doctor up to the standards of a criminal?
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

minnie616 said:
Abortions only happen before birth .....not after.

You seem to forgetting we have a 2004 Federal law known as the Born Alive Act.

Any premie/ infant that is born alive is a protected citizen and as such 2 actions can be offered the parent of a born alive infant ; either extraordinary medical measures or palliative care.
Click to expand...

Me forgetting about or not knowing about any law, I didn't know about the law you cite, does not increase or decrease the need for the law, the adherence to that law or the number of times that law is broken.

Did Northam reference that law in his comments? Why do you bring it up?
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
The salient issue is that the doctor(s) and the mother are discussing topics including ending the person that was just born.

Once born in the USA, that person is both a citizen and a person with all of the rights that accompany the state of being a person.
Click to expand...

I am curious.

In general are you ok with Hospice, Palliative Care, or Comfort Care for patients with overwhelming/catastrophic health conditions?

If yes, are you ever ok with Hospice, Palliative Care or Comfort Care of a newborn patients with overwhelming.catastrophic health conditions?
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

year2late said:
Kermit Gosnell commited a crime. Most prochoicers I know are disgusted by his actions and are glad he is behind bars.

Next.

Again, he rightfully was convicted of a crime.

I am curious, do you hold your own doctor up to the standards of a criminal?
Click to expand...

If my doctor commits criminal acts, then he should be held to account.

In the case of abortion, most abortions are entirely legal and completely immoral.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

year2late said:
I am curious.

In general are you ok with Hospice, Palliative Care, or Comfort Care for patients with overwhelming/catastrophic health conditions?

If yes, are you ever ok with Hospice, Palliative Care or Comfort Care of a newborn patients with overwhelming.catastrophic health conditions?
Click to expand...

I am always in favor of providing comfort to all who need it.

Killing one person for the convenience of another does not seem to fall into any of the categories you describe.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
Kermit Gosnell was a doctor.

Kermit Gosnell did precisely what you say doctors do not do for women who requested precisely what you imply no woman would request.

This is reality in the real world and actually has happened. It is very likely continuing to happen. Why are you denying it?

FLASHBACK Abortionist Gosnell: 'This Baby Is Big Enough to Walk Around With Me or Walk Me to the Bus Stop'
Click to expand...

As I said , Kermit Gosnell had no problem breaking laws.
It is my personal belief he was mentally ill.

We have no idea if the women even knew they were more 20 weeks pregnant.

Gosnell seemed to prey on uneducated women.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
Me forgetting about or not knowing about any law, I didn't know about the law you cite, does not increase or decrease the need for the law, the adherence to that law or the number of times that law is broken.

Did Northam reference that law in his comments? Why do you bring it up?
Click to expand...

Because you seem to ignore it.

Northam clearly abides by it in his comments. As a doctor, he knows he is only obliged to offer treatments that are medically appropriate for the patient,
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
If my doctor commits criminal acts, then he should be held to account.

In the case of abortion, most abortions are entirely legal and completely immoral.
Click to expand...

You concider them immoral.

My pro choice church and I agree that legal abortion before viabilty is a part of our religious liberty in the US.

From the RCRC

The decisions to become a parent, when and under what circumstances are deeply personal. These matters are best left to a woman to discern for herself in consultation with her family, her faith and others she may bring into the conversation.
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

minnie616 said:
As I said , Kermit Gosnell had no problem breaking laws.
It is my personal belief he was mentally ill.

We have no idea if the women even knew they were more 20 weeks pregnant.

Gosnell seemed to prey on uneducated women.
Click to expand...

When the unborn child is as developed as the one that looked like it was a new born, it's difficult to believe that the woman did not know she was pregnant.

Gosnell's clinic was in a bad part of town. He does seem to hold a different view of the sanctity of life than most people, let alone doctors, are believed to hold.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

year2late said:
Because you seem to ignore it.

Northam clearly abides by it in his comments. As a doctor, he knows he is only obliged to offer treatments that are medically appropriate for the patient,
Click to expand...

You say that he clearly IS referencing something that he did not mention and was not included in the discussion previously.

You say that he is clearly NOT referencing something that was specifically addressed in the conversation leading to his comments.

You seem to possess an all knowing understanding for what IS being referenced and what is NOT being referenced that is independent of the information available to normal humans.

 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

minnie616 said:
You concider them immoral.

My pro choice church and I agree that legal abortion before viabilty is a part of our religious liberty in the US.

From the RCRC
Click to expand...

I also agree that it is legal.

I just have a problem with ending human life.

I think we have, once again, beat this dead horse into the ground.

With respects, I will leave this conversation.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
Me forgetting about or not knowing about any law, I didn't know about the law you cite, does not increase or decrease the need for the law, the adherence to that law or the number of times that law is broken.

Did Northam reference that law in his comments? Why do you bring it up?
Click to expand...

Northam would know about the law.

And would know the Born Alive Act would overrule any State Law would be passed.

He was describing the 2 lawful options when an infant is born alive.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

Angel said:
This spin dance seems to be a favorite of the knee-jerk pro-abortion lobby here: after denying a view, embrace it as common but misrepresented.
Bad faith.
And this from you:

this does not represent my view.
Bad faith redux.

Strictly bush-league, ma'am.
Click to expand...

Oh I know it doesnt reflect your view, lol.

I was showing how you have mis-represented the pro-choice position, which *respects the woman's choice (and women)* You have plainly shown you do not.

But my characterization is extremely common.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

Angel said:
Legal Fictions and Other Lies​
New Legal Fictions
http://georgetown.lawreviewnetwork.com/files/pdf/95-5/SMITH.pdf
Legal fiction
Legal English: “Legal Fiction” - Blog | @WashULaw
Legal fiction
Legal fiction | Britannica.com
Fiction of Law Defined and Explained
Fiction of Law Defined and Explained
Legal Fictions and Common Law Legal Theory
Legal Fictions and Common Law Legal Theory
Click to expand...

:lamo

I didnt say legal fictions didnt exist...I just wrote that the one you claimed *in your opinion* was not one :mrgreen:
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
Is that what the Virginia law proposes as described by the person that was proposing it?

Northam said that "no woman" seeks a third trimester abortion unless there is something very wrong with the child. That is untrue. Given that he is a doctor and a politician, it is probably also a lie.

In the case of Gosnell, he would often state just before killing the new born or partially born that the child was big enough to walk to the bus.

Again, just trying to clarify what is being discussed.
Click to expand...

Please find sources that prove that legal elective abortions are occuring that late (and not ones a decade or more old). No elective abortions take place that late. There are cases where the mother's health is in jeopardy...but those also come under the heading of 'medically necessary' abortions.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
Kermit Gosnell was a doctor.

Kermit Gosnell did precisely what you say doctors do not do for women who requested precisely what you imply no woman would request.

This is reality in the real world and actually has happened. It is very likely continuing to happen. Why are you denying it?

FLASHBACK Abortionist Gosnell: 'This Baby Is Big Enough to Walk Around With Me or Walk Me to the Bus Stop'
Click to expand...

He was a criminal and he was performing illegal medical procedures. He was breaking the law, many laws.

So nothing stops Drs from breaking the law now either, but it doesnt seem common since we havent seen this kind of sick abuse since then.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
Do you know what context means?
Click to expand...

Do you know what facts mean?

Do you know what word definitions are?

Do you think that Drs like the governor dont know what an abortion is?

He was discussing care of an infant...and the care and decisions he discussed would apply to any preemies or newborns.

Yet you've conveniently avoided commenting on if you believe the choice to provide palliative/comfort care for those infants is wrong. The laws currently allow it...are those laws wrong? It's interesting...you've been asked this many times...yet you ignore it. That's ok, because others can read this and see that you have no response and cant overcome the hypocrisy of your stance on the governor's statement.

It remains illustrative in any case :)
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

code1211 said:
You have an odd idea of what a fact is.

The comments made by Northam were made in the context of a discussion on a bill proposed to change the laws regulating abortion in the state of Virginia.

The FACT is that he was discussing abortion.
Click to expand...

And he said NOTHING about killing a born child.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

minnie616 said:
Abortions only happen before birth .....not after.

You seem to forgetting we have a 2004 Federal law known as the Born Alive Act.

Any premie/ infant that is born alive is a protected citizen and as such 2 actions can be offered the parent of a born alive infant ; either extraordinary medical measures or palliative care.
Click to expand...

He has yet to answer the questions asked of him regarding if he disagrees with those laws or not. I think it might expose hypocrisy after his statements about the governor's quote....or maybe he is one of those people who are completely against compassionate release. There have been a couple people that felt that way.
 
re: [W:1027] Abortion Semantics: "Unborn Children"

Logician Man said:
/// knee jerk pro-abortion lobby here /// Pot...meet kettle...pro-choice =/= pro abortion <----- ( 'bad faith' posting ).....end......of.......story....
Click to expand...
This typically elliptical shorthand post of yours does not well hide the fact that you don't know ass from elbow about what you presume to post about.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom