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A Question To Pro-Choice People

Re: Statements of fact?

Originally Posted by southwest88

many liberal judges think babies should still be subject to execution shortly after they are born - I haven't seen anywhere a single judge offer the opinion that a baby should be subject to execution - & by definition, that means after he or she is born. Do you have a cite for that? & even in these jaded days, I'm sure that if a federal judge were to offer such an opinion, it would make the news.

end quote/



The 1973 Roe v. Wade ruling is the law in the US, as far as abortion goes. & no judge TMK has advocated murdering children - or you need to furnish proof or @ least a cite somewhere. The irrefutably universally recognized legal right isn't abortion as such - it's the right of the woman to privacy in opting (or not) for a medical procedure - in this case, an abortion.

Yah, US Army Major, pediatric neurosurgeon & VA Gov. Northam described how a late-term third trimester abortion (very rare, & done only for therapeutic reasons) might be decided upon in VA (he was describing either past or current procedure, I don't recall which - & I assume based upon his medical experience - his specialty was likely to be called to consult on that matter) & he was contrasting it with a recent bill [in the last VA legislative session] proposing changes to the decision-making on that procedure. The proposed bill was bottled up in committee, it never went to a vote, & died in the legislature. & of course, for all his virtues & accomplishments, Gov. Northam is not a sitting judge, nor is he likely to become one.

& we're still in the Political forums, Abortion section of this site. Which means that there is more involved in abortion in the US than just the religion or theology or morals of the issue. I think everyone would prefer less abortion, & more birth control in the US instead. But the anti-abortion forces are also (mostly) adamantly opposed to better & wider dissemination of birth control methods & devices. That leaves the anti-abortion groups trying to push a mountain uphill. Unless & until we gain complete mastery over pregnancy & birth - there is always going to be some tiny fraction of therapeutic abortion out of the total universe of pregnancies.

Abortion is a modern legality which reflects the modern degeneration of American morals and values.
 
Re: @ least two errors there

:applaud:applaud:applaud

Thank you!

Because what ARE universally accepted rights in the US are a woman's Constitutional rights, our bodily sovereignty, our self-determination. Black and white, many decisions by SCOTUS over the years.

And all of these would be violated by laws that made it illegal for women to have abortions.

This, which you just clarified for us, is why the judges's decisions on right to abortion were correct.

Four thousand years of laws opposing the execution of unborn babies has now been replaced in the last 50 years by an unpopulat leftist godless liberal law allowing the savage barbarian brutality.
 
Re: @ least two errors there

And yet, the same exact laws already exist for preemies and newborns that are born compromised with terminal conditions or conditions so severe they will always suffer or have a very poor quality of life. Parents decide with their doctors to try extraordinary measures to keep the infant alive or provide palliative (comfort) care.

Do you think that the current laws enabling this should be rescinded?

I favor the type of hippocratic oath which swears to try to save any and all patients regardless of the severity of their conditions.
 
Re: @ least two errors there

:applaud:applaud:applaud

Thank you!

Because what ARE universally accepted rights in the US are a woman's Constitutional rights, our bodily sovereignty, our self-determination. Black and white, many decisions by SCOTUS over the years.

And all of these would be violated by laws that made it illegal for women to have abortions.

This, which you just clarified for us, is why the judges's decisions on right to abortion were correct.

Leftists believe as long as the execution is comforting then there is nothing wrong with it, and they reference the 'agonizing court ordered 2 week slow starvation death' of poor helpless defenseless Terri Schiavo as an example of a mercy killing.
 
Follow the bouncing ball

Abortion is a modern legality which reflects the modern degeneration of American morals and values.

Abortion in the English common law wasn't forbidden. Even in the UK colonies in the Americas, where the state was dragooned (the Puritans) to enforce theological strictures, abortion before the fetus' quickening was not considered a crime, & often enough even abortion after quickening wasn't denounced. Midwives knew how to induce abortion - or spontaneous miscarriage, if you prefer that term. If you want to pontificate on these issues, you might as well do your homework & spare yourself a lot of grief.

Or you can content yourself to issue jeremiads from time to time, on the tragic decline of morals in Western Civilization. Of course, that would put you squarely in the tradition of the Old Testament prophets, who usually were put to the sword for their pains, or in the company of Socrates. Say it with him now:

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”
 
Re: @ least two errors there

They asked a direct question, which describes what Northam was discussing:

Do you believe that palliative/comfort care is murder?

When it came to the democrat court ordered slow starvation execution of Terri Schiavo I definitely call it murder. I also call mercy killings of babies born alive murder as well, which was why, with apologies to the deranged racist Northam, Kermit Gosnell was sent to prison.
 
Re: @ least two errors there

Four thousand years of laws opposing the execution of unborn babies has now been replaced in the last 50 years by an unpopulat leftist godless liberal law allowing the savage barbarian brutality.

That first bit is completely ahistorical. Do the readings, look into the history.

The second bit is a common misconception: The Supreme Court that found for Roe v. Wade was mostly conservative, & had been mostly named to the SC by Republican presidents.

- & of course, under Roe, there are no unborn babies - there are fetuses in utero, & they remain fetuses until they are born. Then they are babies.
 
Re: Follow the bouncing ball

Abortion in the English common law wasn't forbidden. Even in the UK colonies in the Americas, where the state was dragooned (the Puritans) to enforce theological strictures, abortion before the fetus' quickening was not considered a crime, & often enough even abortion after quickening wasn't denounced. Midwives knew how to induce abortion - or spontaneous miscarriage, if you prefer that term. If you want to pontificate on these issues, you might as well do your homework & spare yourself a lot of grief.

Or you can content yourself to issue jeremiads from time to time, on the tragic decline of morals in Western Civilization. Of course, that would put you squarely in the tradition of the Old Testament prophets, who usually were put to the sword for their pains, or in the company of Socrates. Say it with him now:

“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.”

No Christian scholar has ever presented anything but God's disapproval of abortion. Nobody can make a case for God's supposed support for abortion. That does not matter to most democrats, however. They triued to kick God and Jews off their political platform in 2012. They showed their true colors at that convention in Charlotte that year.
 
Re: @ least two errors there

When it came to the democrat court ordered slow starvation execution of Terri Schiavo I definitely call it murder. I also call mercy killings of babies born alive murder as well, which was why, with apologies to the deranged racist Northam, Kermit Gosnell was sent to prison.

I think you're seeing what you want (fear?) to see in the World. It may be that Modernity does not sit well with you.

You have my sympathy.

Yes, Gosnell was arrested, tried, found guilty of murders, manslaughter, various drug-related felonies. He was sentenced to life in prison, without possibility of parole. Gosnell was not charged with mercy killings, he was charged with several murders (& one count, I believe, of manslaughter), & other charges.
 
Try to live an ethical life

No Christian scholar has ever presented anything but God's disapproval of abortion. Nobody can make a case for God's supposed support for abortion. That does not matter to most democrats, however. They triued to kick God and Jews off their political platform in 2012. They showed their true colors at that convention in Charlotte that year.

I suppose it's back to the old question of Evil in the World. Lots of priests & philosophers & ethicists have broken their teeth on that one, & spilled oceans of ink & continents of paper. It's beyond my pay grade.

I live my life as best I can. I recommend the same to everyone.
 
Re: @ least two errors there

When it came to the democrat court ordered slow starvation execution of Terri Schiavo I definitely call it murder. I also call mercy killings of babies born alive murder as well, which was why, with apologies to the deranged racist Northam, Kermit Gosnell was sent to prison.

There are no mercy killings of born alive babies.
Palliative care instead of extraordinary measures is not a mercy killing.

From WebMD:

Neonatal Palliative Care: Focus on Life

When a fetus or newborn is diagnosed with a life-threatening condition, no matter how early or late in the pregnancy, it is a loss that parents grieve.

Parents imagine their child's future from the moment they find out they're expecting. By a first prenatal doctor visit, parents may have countless plans for their baby. Now different plans must be made. For this reason, palliative care may be recommended before, during, and after delivery.

Palliative care is recommended for newborns who:

Are born at extremely low birth weight (i.e. a pound or less)
Are born before 23 weeks of gestation
Are born with a lethal abnormality or malformation
Will experience more burden than benefit from further treatments for their condition


Palliative care can begin as soon as a diagnosis is made, even if it's during pregnancy. If a baby or fetus has a life-threatening condition, doctors usually will offer parents a set of options. Palliative care providers help parents make and cope with these decisions

As I explained many times Gosnell was not trained to perform abortions past 21 weeks. He induced labor and then murdered any babies born alive.

There are only 4 clinic doctors in the United States who are trained and skilled enough to perform clinic abortions past 21 weeks for patients who have pregnancies with extreme medical need for an abortion.

From Romper :
In 2013, there were four doctors in the country who performed abortions after the 20th week of pregnancy, according to Slate. (Current numbers could be even lower.)

Which States Offer Late-Term Abortions? They Are Very Difficult To Access
 
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Re: @ least two errors there

Four thousand years of laws opposing the execution of unborn babies has now been replaced in the last 50 years by an unpopulat leftist godless liberal law allowing the savage barbarian brutality.

Women have been aborting for much longer than that.

And thru all that time...no one liked it or wanted it. Women then...and now...do it when they need to.

Savage barbarian brutality like forcing women to remain pregnant against their will? That, happily, has gone by the wayside in America :mrgreen:
 
Re: @ least two errors there

Leftists believe as long as the execution is comforting then there is nothing wrong with it, and they reference the 'agonizing court ordered 2 week slow starvation death' of poor helpless defenseless Terri Schiavo as an example of a mercy killing.

This is not even comprehensible. Stay on topic, stay coherent, and try again.
 
Re: @ least two errors there

I favor the type of hippocratic oath which swears to try to save any and all patients regardless of the severity of their conditions.

And I find that inhumane and immoral.

I treat my pets better.
 
Re: @ least two errors there

When it came to the democrat court ordered slow starvation execution of Terri Schiavo I definitely call it murder. I also call mercy killings of babies born alive murder as well, which was why, with apologies to the deranged racist Northam, Kermit Gosnell was sent to prison.

One more time for the cheap seats:

And I find that inhumane and immoral.

I treat my pets better.​
 
Re: @ least two errors there

Yes. Modern Americans have made the bloody business of unborn baby executions legal but the modern law is not something that was understood as being right by our founding fathers. Legal abortion is the modern reflection of select judges and not the opinions of all people or all judges. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness was recognized by the founding fathers as an eternal human right. Abortion has been turned into an assumed human right in only the last 50 years or so of human civilization, and that is because human civilization is becoming more degenerate with time. That might prove to be the result of some sort of moral decay corresponding to the laws of physical decay codified in the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.

You are mistaken about our founding fathers.

Ben Franklin, Benjamin Rush and Thomas Jefferson( our Founding Fathers ) put no moral judgement on abortion.


Our founding fathers actually wrote about the subject.
Benjamin Franklin’s views can be inferred from an incident that occurred in 1729 when his former employer, newspaper editor Samuel Keimer of Philadelphia, published an encyclopedia whose very first volume included a detailed article on abortion, including directions for ending an unwanted pregnancy (“immoderate Evacuations, violent Motions, sudden Passions, Frights … violent Purgatives and in the general anything that tends to promote the Menses.”) Hoping to found his own newspaper to compete with Keimer, Franklin responded in print through the satiric voices of two fictional characters, “Celia Shortface” and “Martha Careful” who expressed mock outrage at Keimer for exposing “the secrets of our sex” which ought to be reserved “for the repository of the learned.” One of the aggrieved ladies threatened to grab Keimer’s beard and pull it if she spotted him at the tavern! Neither Franklin nor his prudish protagonists objected to abortion per se, but only to the immodesty of discussing such feminine mysteries in public.

Dr. Benjamin Rush, a well known physician who signed the Declaration of Independence, shared his views of the subject matter-of-factly in his book of Medical Inquiries and Observations (1805). Discussing blood-letting as a possible treatment to prevent miscarriage during the third month of pregnancy, when he believed there was a special tendency to spontaneous abortion, Rush asked the question, “what is an abortion but a haemoptysis (if I may be allowed the expression) from the uterus?” A hemoptysis is the clinical term for the expectoration of blood or bloody sputum from the lungs or larynx. In Rush’s mind, apparently, what we would now call the three-month-old embryo was equivalent medically to what one might cough up when ill with the flu.

Thomas Jefferson put no moral judgment on abortion, either. In his Notes on the State of Virginia, he observed that for Native American women, who accompanied their men in war and hunting parties, “childbearing becomes extremely inconvenient to them. It is said, therefore, that they have learnt the practice of procuring abortion by the use of some vegetable, and that it even extends to prevent conception for some time after.” Jefferson on the whole admired the native people and the Notes were intended in part to counter the views of the French naturalist Buffon, who accused the indigenous inhabitants of the New World of being degenerate and less virile than their European counterparts. In extenuation, Jefferson cites “voluntary abortion” along with the hazards of the wilderness and famine as obstacles nature has placed in the way of increased multiplication among the natives. Indian women married to white traders, he observes, produce abundant children and are excellent mothers. The fact that they practice birth control and when necessary terminate their pregnancies does not lessen his respect for them, but appears to be in his mind simply one of the ingenious ways they have adapted to their challenging environment.

American Creation: The Founding Fathers and Abortion in Colonial America

American Creation: The Founding Fathers and Abortion in Colonial America
 
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Re: Follow the bouncing ball

No Christian scholar has ever presented anything but God's disapproval of abortion. Nobody can make a case for God's supposed support for abortion. That does not matter to most democrats, however. They triued to kick God and Jews off their political platform in 2012. They showed their true colors at that convention in Charlotte that year.

Your Christian beliefs on abortion: who cares? Why should non-Christians or those who dont believe the same be forced to comply with your beliefs?

I wrote to you yesterday that you have other options if you feel the need to live in a theocracy. Say good by to many of your personal liberties and equality. But the door's open...feel free.

I'm a practicing Christian and I dont see the need to use force of law or any other force against women to make them remain pregnant against their wills. I know the my Lord and Savior would abhor that idea as well.

The prevailing goal for pro-choice people is that abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.
 
It is the pro-choice that gives non-factual opinion and spin.

According to science, life starts at conception.



Science Deniers Notwithstanding, Human Life Begins at Conception | Evolution News




Why Life Begins At Conception - NAAPC
At what point has there been a denial of that. Plant life starts at pollination. All individual life above a cellular level starts with breeding of some sort, with a few exceptions. When human life begins is irrelevant. When life begins holds no sway on the bodily autonomy issue, and also has no bearing on the personhood issue.

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
 
Re: A critique of reason

:roll: yada-yada-yada....


Care to bring up anything scientific that says life doesn't start at conception?
Care to point out where anyone here has made that argument?

Sent from my Z982 using Tapatalk
 
Re: @ least two errors there

I favor the type of hippocratic oath which swears to try to save any and all patients regardless of the severity of their conditions.

So the Hippocratic oath demands that a patient with overwhelming serious or terminal conditions be treated to "save them"?

Show me where it says that.

I am curious. Have you ever heard of hospice and palliative care?

Damn. Just Damn.
 
Re: @ least two errors there

When it came to the democrat court ordered slow starvation execution of Terri Schiavo I definitely call it murder. I also call mercy killings of babies born alive murder as well, which was why, with apologies to the deranged racist Northam, Kermit Gosnell was sent to prison.

You think keeping a brainless corpse alive with tubes was the right thing to do? Who are you? Dr. Frankenstein?
 
Re: @ least two errors there

That first bit is completely ahistorical. Do the readings, look into the history.

The second bit is a common misconception: The Supreme Court that found for Roe v. Wade was mostly conservative, & had been mostly named to the SC by Republican presidents.

- & of course, under Roe, there are no unborn babies - there are fetuses in utero, & they remain fetuses until they are born. Then they are babies.

Baby killers do not like to think of human babies as being human.
 
Re: @ least two errors there

I think you're seeing what you want (fear?) to see in the World. It may be that Modernity does not sit well with you.

You have my sympathy.

Yes, Gosnell was arrested, tried, found guilty of murders, manslaughter, various drug-related felonies. He was sentenced to life in prison, without possibility of parole. Gosnell was not charged with mercy killings, he was charged with several murders (& one count, I believe, of manslaughter), & other charges.

Maybe the next democrat president can pardon Gosnell since the democrats plan to make post birth abortion legal once they get Trump out of the way.
 
Re: Try to live an ethical life

I suppose it's back to the old question of Evil in the World. Lots of priests & philosophers & ethicists have broken their teeth on that one, & spilled oceans of ink & continents of paper. It's beyond my pay grade.

I live my life as best I can. I recommend the same to everyone.

Serve God with fear and trembling and believe and obey His Word and you won't end up badly.
 
Re: @ least two errors there

There are only 4 clinic doctors in the United States who are trained and skilled enough to perform clinic abortions past 21 weeks for patients who have pregnancies with extreme medical need for an abortion.

1. Herr Democrat Doktor Joseph Mengele
2. Herr Democrat Doktor Carl Clauberg
3. Herr Democrat Doktor Herte Oberheuser
4. Herr Democrat Doktor Karl Brandt

Of the Glorious Planned Parenthood Nazi Gestapo.

The Nazi Doctors
 
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