Why is abortion acceptable?

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

Scrabaholic said:

Care to answer my question? Would pictures of animal slaughter stop you from eating meat?

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I have worked in slaughter houses and rendering plants. That doesn't make me sick. What makes me sick is how callous humans can be to butcher unborn babies while stupidly thinking they are doing a great work and providing a great service to humanity.

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

Bodhisattva said:

The Irony is that Hell will be filled with hot chicks, speedboats and martinis... Heaven will be Puritanical and boring.

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Someone has been guzzling the spiked Kool-Aid at the devil's tribal barbarian hedonist bash.

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

marke said:

We need to see exactly where these numbers are coming from, especially in today's world of widespread fake news reporting. This is from USA Today:

Hospitals know how to protect mothers. They just aren't doing it. Maternal mortality rates rise as hospital safety measures go unused

There is no tracking system for childbirth complications.

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https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehea...h/pregnancy-mortality-surveillance-system.htm

Data on Pregnancy Complications | Pregnancy | Maternal and Infant Health | CDC

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

marke said:

We need to see exactly where these numbers are coming from, especially in today's world of widespread fake news reporting. This is from USA Today:

Hospitals know how to protect mothers. They just aren't doing it. Maternal mortality rates rise as hospital safety measures go unused

There is no tracking system for childbirth complications.

Click to expand...

Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System | Maternal and Infant Health | CDC

Data on Pregnancy Complications | Pregnancy | Maternal and Infant Health | CDC

I think it is important to say that most women who choose abortion have poor access to high quality obstetrical care. The are usually poor or working poor and either have no insurance or medicaid. If they have no insurance, they may be eligible for medicaid even if they are over the medicaid requirements. So what does medicaid get you? OB at an understaffed and overused clinic. A clinic that even with an appointment you may have to wait hours. More wait for tests and screening. So it is very possible you may need to take a full day off work for a simple appointment. For a woman that is working poor and likely is struggling to support a born child....if she continues her pregnancy she may understandably believe that her health is a risk by continuing the pregnancy.

I know I was supposed to have a healthy pregnancy. No risk factors Great child birthing hips...Because I had accessible care and a doctor that knew me well, he saw very subtle signs that probably would have been missed. I am lucky to have my kidneys. It was the high quality prenatal care that saved my life.

Pragmatism is needed. If folks are invested in decreasing abortion rates...a woman knowing that she and her family had decent health care now and in the future. She will want to have hope for having her child (if born) grow up in a safe and secure area with basic needs met. Right now, many women who choose abortion in no such position.

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

marke said:

We need to see exactly where these numbers are coming from, especially in today's world of widespread fake news reporting. This is from USA Today:

Hospitals know how to protect mothers. They just aren't doing it. Maternal mortality rates rise as hospital safety measures go unused

There is no tracking system for childbirth complications.

Click to expand...

The near misses are real. Those numbers are not made up.
They are real women who experience those near misses.

My daughter was near miss when she suddenly had pain in her liver because it was swelling from the HELLP syndrome.

I was with her I the Emergency room when she was in the extreme pain and was as white as a ghost.

I was with her and the nurses when they ran the tests. I saw how concerned and nervous they were when they got the results back and rushed her off for stat c-section.
I saw the look of terror on my son-in -laws face when he realized his wife die on the night he becomes a dad for the time.


My daughter had HELLP syndrome with her pregnancy and she was very close to death when they performed the emergency
C section.

She went to the ER a few weeks before her due date because she was getting a horrible pain in her back just below her ribs which was caused because her liver was being damaged from the HELLP syndrome.
Usually there is pain the upper right part of the abdomen but her pain was in the back because her liver was swelling and shutting down.
They were worried her liver might fail.


Her OB/GYN was shocked when her test results came back showing she had HELLP syndrome. She had just seen him a couple days before and everything with the pregnancy appeared fine then.

My daughter was one the up to 8 percent of women in the US who every year developes 'preeclampsia, eclampsia, or a related condition such as HELLP syndrome." Thankfully she was not one of the roughly 300 US women who do die from the syndrome every year but she was one of the roughly 75,000 women every year who are counted as near misses.

More about HELLP synvdrome:

Continued




A little more about HELLP Syndrome:

HELLP syndrome is a life-threatening pregnancy complication usually considered to be a variant of preeclampsia. Both conditions usually occur during the later stages of pregnancy, or sometimes after childbirth.

HELLP syndrome was named by Dr. Louis Weinstein in 1982 after its characteristics:

H (hemolysis, which is the breaking down of red blood cells)
EL (elevated liver enzymes)
LP (low platelet count)

HELLP syndrome can be difficult to diagnose, especially when high blood pressure and protein in the urine aren't present. Its symptoms are sometimes mistaken for gastritis, flu, acute hepatitis, gall bladder disease, or other conditions.

The global mortality rate of HELLP syndrome has been reported to be as high as 25%.

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HELLP Syndrome: Preeclampsia Foundation

HELLP Syndrome: Preeclampsia Foundation

Old Sarge said:

And why was that? Infidelity, the stigma of others knowing they cheated. No I believe you will find the vast majority of abortions in the 30's were single girls and women. But like everything there are always exceptions to every rule.


May I give you a complement? You are making sound reasoned arguments unlike the men here who support abortion. I thank you.

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I found a couple of the stats about the percent of married white women who had abortions in the early and mid 1930s

Actually .... Married white women aborted 24.3 percent of their pregnancies in 1930 and 18.3 percent in 1935.


Info From:

When Abortion Was a Crime

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

year2late said:

Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System | Maternal and Infant Health | CDC

Click to expand...

Pregnancy deaths. Got it. 700 per year.

Data on Pregnancy Complications | Pregnancy | Maternal and Infant Health | CDC

Click to expand...

Maybe these are life-threatening in every case, but that is doubtful. Nevertheless, this is what your reference states:

Post Partum Hemorrhages increased from around 5 per 10,000 births in 1993 to around 40 per 10,000 births in 2014.

Deep Vein Thrombosis and Pulmonary embolisms decreased from 1-6 per 10,000 births in 1993 to 2-4 per 10,000 births in 2014.

Hypertension disorders increased from a total of around 529 per 10,000 births in 1993 to around 913 per 10,000 births in 2014.

Chronic Hypertension increased from about 6 in 10,000 births to around 167 per 10,000 births in 2014.

If we assume there were 4 million babies born in the US in 2014, then we can compute that these numbers of problems were diagnosed among pregnant women that year:

16,000 Post Partum Hemorrhages.
2,400 Deep Vein Thrombosis cases.
1,600 Pulmonary Embolism cases.

Total of 20,000 cases.

But in the larger category of Hypertension and Chronic hypertension we find hundreds of thousands of cases. However, that does not mean these are issues solely related to pregnancy or that these issues developed from pregnancy alone and present life-threatening situations that are caused only by being pregnant. Men and women have hypertension. There are many causes. Cases may be or immediate high risk or not, depending on individual specifics.

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

year2late said:

Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System | Maternal and Infant Health | CDC

Data on Pregnancy Complications | Pregnancy | Maternal and Infant Health | CDC

I think it is important to say that most women who choose abortion have poor access to high quality obstetrical care. The are usually poor or working poor and either have no insurance or medicaid. If they have no insurance, they may be eligible for medicaid even if they are over the medicaid requirements. So what does medicaid get you? OB at an understaffed and overused clinic. A clinic that even with an appointment you may have to wait hours. More wait for tests and screening. So it is very possible you may need to take a full day off work for a simple appointment. For a woman that is working poor and likely is struggling to support a born child....if she continues her pregnancy she may understandably believe that her health is a risk by continuing the pregnancy.

I know I was supposed to have a healthy pregnancy. No risk factors Great child birthing hips...Because I had accessible care and a doctor that knew me well, he saw very subtle signs that probably would have been missed. I am lucky to have my kidneys. It was the high quality prenatal care that saved my life.

Pragmatism is needed. If folks are invested in decreasing abortion rates...a woman knowing that she and her family had decent health care now and in the future. She will want to have hope for having her child (if born) grow up in a safe and secure area with basic needs met. Right now, many women who choose abortion in no such position.

Click to expand...

My wife was counseled by medical professionals six or seven different times to have an abortion, to protect the mother's health, since no defects were detected in any of the unborn babies. We do not believe in abortion. We have 8 very healthy grown children now and 30 very lively grandchildren. Abortion did not wipe out our family before it even had a chance at a beginning. Thank God.

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

minnie616 said:

The near misses are real. Those numbers are not made up.
They are real women who experience those near misses.

My daughter was near miss when she suddenly had pain in her liver because it was swelling from the HELLP syndrome.

I was with her I the Emergency room when she was in the extreme pain and was as white as a ghost.

I was with her and the nurses when they ran the tests. I saw how concerned and nervous they were when they got the results back and rushed her off for stat c-section.
I saw the look of terror on my son-in -laws face when he realized his wife die on the night he becomes a dad for the time.


My daughter had HELLP syndrome with her pregnancy and she was very close to death when they performed the emergency
C section.

She went to the ER a few weeks before her due date because she was getting a horrible pain in her back just below her ribs which was caused because her liver was being damaged from the HELLP syndrome.
Usually there is pain the upper right part of the abdomen but her pain was in the back because her liver was swelling and shutting down.
They were worried her liver might fail.


Her OB/GYN was shocked when her test results came back showing she had HELLP syndrome. She had just seen him a couple days before and everything with the pregnancy appeared fine then.

My daughter was one the up to 8 percent of women in the US who every year developes 'preeclampsia, eclampsia, or a related condition such as HELLP syndrome." Thankfully she was not one of the roughly 300 US women who do die from the syndrome every year but she was one of the roughly 75,000 women every year who are counted as near misses.

More about HELLP synvdrome:

Click to expand...

Women do get sick and die, even when not pregnant. Pregnancy does put women at risk, but so does illicit sex. We live in a world of dangers, which is why it is important to ask for God's protection as we live out our lives.

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

marke said:

Pregnancy deaths. Got it. 700 per year.



Maybe these are life-threatening in every case, but that is doubtful. Nevertheless, this is what your reference states:

Post Partum Hemorrhages increased from around 5 per 10,000 births in 1993 to around 40 per 10,000 births in 2014.

Deep Vein Thrombosis and Pulmonary embolisms decreased from 1-6 per 10,000 births in 1993 to 2-4 per 10,000 births in 2014.

Hypertension disorders increased from a total of around 529 per 10,000 births in 1993 to around 913 per 10,000 births in 2014.

Chronic Hypertension increased from about 6 in 10,000 births to around 167 per 10,000 births in 2014.

If we assume there were 4 million babies born in the US in 2014, then we can compute that these numbers of problems were diagnosed among pregnant women that year:

16,000 Post Partum Hemorrhages.
2,400 Deep Vein Thrombosis cases.
1,600 Pulmonary Embolism cases.

Total of 20,000 cases.

But in the larger category of Hypertension and Chronic hypertension we find hundreds of thousands of cases, but that does not mean these are issues related to pregnancy or that these issues developed from pregnancy alone and present life-threatening situations that are caused only by being pregnant. Men and women have hypertension. There are many causes. Cases may be or immediate high risk or not, depending on individual specifics.

Click to expand...

I was very healthy. No expectations of complications. I was off work almost 6 months due to unexpected complications.

I am curious, if the hypertension did not exist before pregnancy and pre-eclampsia (or related condition) hits and hypertensive crisis ensues (and whatever other damages it causes) then once a woman is no longer pregnant the hypertensive crisis and assorted other symptons of pre-eclampsia go away......what to you think caused her condition. Pre-eclampsia can be treated , but the cure is usually at the end of pregnancy, not before.

My condition came early and fast. My BP was a bit higher, but not in hypertension range..so normally it would be a watch and wait a few weeks. He saw a subtle sign and decided to send me for more testing. He was right. My kidneys were already under attack. I have my kidneys because I had good insurance and an experienced doctor who had the time to really know me.

I may be personally against abortion, but hell if I am going to decide for another woman (who may not have had decent insurance let alone access to experienced prenatal care) what risks to take.

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

marke said:

My wife was counseled by medical professionals six or seven different times to have an abortion, to protect the mother's health, since no defects were detected in any of the unborn babies. We do not believe in abortion. We have 8 very healthy grown children now and 30 very lively grandchildren. Abortion did not wipe out our family before it even had a chance at a beginning. Thank God.

Click to expand...

And that is what choice is about. No is a choice.

She chose based on her beliefs and whatever other medical and social situations she has.

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

year2late said:

I was very healthy. No expectations of complications. I was off work almost 6 months due to unexpected complications.

I am curious, if the hypertension did not exist before pregnancy and pre-eclampsia (or related condition) hits and hypertensive crisis ensues (and whatever other damages it causes) then once a woman is no longer pregnant the hypertensive crisis and assorted other symptons of pre-eclampsia go away......what to you think caused her condition. Pre-eclampsia can be treated , but the cure is usually at the end of pregnancy, not before.

My condition came early and fast. My BP was a bit higher, but not in hypertension range..so normally it would be a watch and wait a few weeks. He saw a subtle sign and decided to send me for more testing. He was right. My kidneys were already under attack. I have my kidneys because I had good insurance and an experienced doctor who had the time to really know me.

I may be personally against abortion, but hell if I am going to decide for another woman (who may not have had decent insurance let alone access to experienced prenatal care) what risks to take.

Click to expand...

If women do not want to risk getting sick they should be very careful how they conduct their sex lives. Women have died during abortions as well, and tens of thousands of women have been infected with serious venereal diseases from having immoral sex. Life is risky. Be careful not to needlessly put yourself at risk.

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

year2late said:

And that is what choice is about. No is a choice.

She chose based on her beliefs and whatever other medical and social situations she has.

Click to expand...

Susan Smith also had a choice. She chose to get rid of her unwanted children. Lots of women do that. It is their body and their life and sometimes it is to hell with the baby.

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

Old Sarge said:

....My other argument is that it takes two to make a child so why doesn't the man have any say his DNA is part of the fetus. ....

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I found the quote and link to study I stated showed that in. over 40 percent of the cases the husband was the first to mention abortion when faced with wife’s unplanned pregnancy.


From Association for Interdisciplinary Research in Values and Social Change

One study found that 44% of husbands instigated the abortion decision. 2 If the couple is dependent on the wife’s income to supplement the household budget, a new baby is often seen by the man primarily in terms of the negative impact it will have on the family’s finances. Or he may not be willing to see his wife’s attention diverted away from himself as she cares for the young child.

Click to expand...

lifeissues.net | The Effects of Abortion on Marriage and Other Committed Relationships

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

marke said:

My wife was counseled by medical professionals six or seven different times to have an abortion, to protect the mother's health, since no defects were detected in any of the unborn babies. We do not believe in abortion. We have 8 very healthy grown children now and 30 very lively grandchildren. Abortion did not wipe out our family before it even had a chance at a beginning. Thank God.

Click to expand...

year2late said:

And that is what choice is about. No is a choice.

She chose based on her beliefs and whatever other medical and social situations she has.

Click to expand...

Exactly. She had a choice.
Pro choice does allow each women to a make their own their own choice based on their beliefs.

Bucky said:

You are looking at this issue in a black and white sense, which I find disturbing.

I already stated an egg that was just fertilized is not considered a human. We have to look at things incrementally. Life evolves.

But your comment is exactly what I find problematic. A fetus pre-born is deserving of no rights but once it is born (which apparently is your red line) means a fetus is a human deserving of rights.

So how much different is a fetus pre-born 1 day to a newborn? Morally, I don't find much of a difference, legally yes.

It would be like an adult male engaging in sex for example with an 18-year old girl vs an adult male engaging in sex with a 17-year old whose birthday is a month away. So just waiting 1 month all of a sudden makes it right?

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Well.. a fetus pre born is deserving of rights... and that's is the right of having its parents.. decide whats in the best interest of the child. Who are you and especially the government to say whats in the best interest of the child.

AND you have the additional problem that the child that's "pre born"... is INSIDE the aforementioned parent..and thus her life and her rights are ALSO affected.

So.... basically you want to take away the rights of the mother.. the rights of the pre born.. in order to thrust your views onto both and make both endure the consequences of your decision.

You certainly are not on the moral high ground here. Your position simply means more suffering for both mothers and their children.

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

year2late said:

And that is what choice is about. No is a choice.

She chose based on her beliefs and whatever other medical and social situations she has.

Click to expand...

Her choice was to love the baby she was pregnant with and not to kill it.

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

marke said:

Her choice was to love the baby she was pregnant with and not to kill it.

Click to expand...

Her choice (s) is whatever 'she' decides.....not what 'you' decide for her.

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

Logician Man said:

Her choice (s) is whatever 'she' decides.....not what 'you' decide for her.

Click to expand...

I'll say again, She loved the unborn baby and she chose not to have a wicked abortion.

Re: We don't know enough to choose wisely; it may be beyond us politically/socially, even if we do k

Why is abortion acceptable?

Because it means one less human being coming into this world.

It doesn't get any better than that.

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

marke said:

I'll say again, She loved the unborn baby and she chose not to have a wicked abortion.

Click to expand...

I'll say it again. There is no such thing as an unborn baby.

Abortion has become more acceptable, as well as other leftist ideals, because of the reduced self-esteem of the individual over time. Think about why a woman aborts: "I can't take care of this child". Those that feel incapable have low self esteem. Killing one's own flesh and blood, in order to have that mindset, you have to feel really low about your own ability as a parent.

Those that feel confident about their ability to be a parent are less likely to abort. Confidence in parenting could also mean confidence in other life achievements, which make people more likely to vote republican.

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

marke said:

If women do not want to risk getting sick they should be very careful how they conduct their sex lives. Women have died during abortions as well, and tens of thousands of women have been infected with serious venereal diseases from having immoral sex. Life is risky. Be careful not to needlessly put yourself at risk.

Click to expand...

Not your decision what other people should and should not do in their sex lives. You do not have that control.

Be responsible for your own morality.

Re: Abortion only applies to the fetus

marke said:

Susan Smith also had a choice. She chose to get rid of her unwanted children. Lots of women do that. It is their body and their life and sometimes it is to hell with the baby.

Click to expand...

What does a woman who murders her born child have to do with abortion. You have jumped the shark on that one,