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Thread: If you are pro-choice, do you think a man should have the choice not to pay alimony?

  1. #391

    Re: An argument that will not stand

    Quote Originally Posted by year2late View Post
    Sounds like you are absolutely trying to control a woman's health care decisions.

    Sorry, but a man (or another woman for that matter) should not control health care decisions for another person.

    So logistically speaking, since a man cannot control a woman's body...his choice is to either accept the consequences OR try to avoid getting a woman pregnant by what ever means he sees fit. If he is serious about wanting to prevent pregnancy, he should use contraception each and every time, no matter what contraception the woman is using (and accept the consequences).
    No your not. You are however misinterpreting what I said. I showed you what your position toward men looks like if we applied the same standard of logic to women's rights. Unsurprisingly you dont like how that plays out, which is my point. I am not advocating to prohibit women from anything pertaining to their body. I am advocating giving men the same window of opportunity to not become fathers as we give to women. Like women I dont require either side to justify their decission. It is a personal decision that each should be allowed to make for their own reasons.

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  2. #392
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    Re: If you are pro-choice, do you think a man should have the choice not to pay alimony?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrWonka View Post
    If you caused a traffic accident and another person's life hung in the balance would it be acceptable for the government to force you the person who caused the traffic accident to donate blood against your will in order to save the victim of the car accident you caused?

    If you caused a traffic accident and another person's life hung in the balance would it be acceptable for the government to force you the person who caused the traffic accident to pay for the ambulance ride to take the victim of the accident you caused to the hospital and cover whatever medical treatments were necessary to save that person's life?

    It is perfectly reasonable for the Government to make you monetarily responsible for the results of an accident that you cause. However, any type of physical abuse, bodily deformation, torture, medical procedures or anything that would significantly impact your body or your health would be unacceptable. That would constitute a cruel and unusual form of punishment.
    accidents? you mean something that wasn't an activity that two people consented too . . . yeah your examples dont match and are totally not analogous to the topic here LMAO
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  3. #393

    Re: The short version

    Quote Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
    Women carry the fetus. Men don't. & so biology is the set of facts on the ground, that law & society must work around, when working on issues of reproductive choice &/or abortion. US law & society already recognize this.
    How does allowing men to opt out of fatherhood rebirth interfere with her biology?

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  4. #394
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    The pig's not flying

    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post


    People go to jail for failing to make payments. People have their professional licenses revoked for failing to pay. You may not consider that s form of servitude and we can debate that if you like because I do consider it servitude.

    Again if mothers are incapable of affording children perhaps we should jail them same as we do fathers. The contradiction is when it happens to men they call it justice but when I suggest women being treated identically they call it injustice.

    Forms of servitude in the US - indentured servitude, Black slavery (& to a limited extent, Native Peoples slavery). Your definition is too broad, you'd have everyone who pays a fine - traffic ticket? - claiming to be in servitude.

    In the case of a father who fails to pay child support - he may or may not have the money to pay. Incarceration is for failure to pay.

    If we were to incarcerate a single mother for failure to pay (pay what, exactly?), then the state would have to care for the child(ren). Or are you advocating that any minor children accompany the woman in jail? Providing for child maintenance & care was the point to pursuing the non-custodial parent for child support in the first place. Your proposed line of action is a non sequitur.

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    Down to the basics

    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    How does allowing men to opt out of fatherhood rebirth interfere with her biology?

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    Allowing men to opt out of fatherhood - actually helping raise the child - is doable, although not recommended for the child's sake. No society in the real world that I know of allows men (or the woman, if she's the one with the financial resources) to opt out of financial responsibility for their offspring.

    What is rebirth in this context?

  6. #396

    Re: The pig's not flying

    Quote Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
    Forms of servitude in the US - indentured servitude, Black slavery (& to a limited extent, Native Peoples slavery). Your definition is too broad, you'd have everyone who pays a fine - traffic ticket? - claiming to be in servitude.

    In the case of a father who fails to pay child support - he may or may not have the money to pay. Incarceration is for failure to pay.

    If we were to incarcerate a single mother for failure to pay (pay what, exactly?), then the state would have to care for the child(ren). Or are you advocating that any minor children accompany the woman in jail? Providing for child maintenance & care was the point to pursuing the non-custodial parent for child support in the first place. Your proposed line of action is a non sequitur.
    What your describing amounts to a modern day version of debters prison.

    The state does not have to take the child. The father can be given custody or put the child up for adoption. Both options protects the states burden and it would discourage mothers from applying for assistance which would also lessen the states burden.

    Why are women entitled to a level compassion that we dont offer men?

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  7. #397
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    Re: If you are pro-choice, do you think a man should have the choice not to pay alimony?

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    accidents? you mean something that wasn't an activity that two people consented too
    Wrong, consenting to sex does not equal consenting to pregnancy. Obviously, nobody wants to have an abortion, and if someone knew their actions were going to result in pregnancy they didn't want they would have taken better precautions. Therefore all abortions which are not required for medical reasons or the result of rape would very obviously be classified as accidents.

    When you consent to go skydiving you're not consenting to splatter into the ground. You know there is a risk, but you expect the safety measures in place to be more than adequate to save your life. Therefore when someone dies while skydiving we refer to it as an "accident" even though we all know that it's a possibility that could happen.

    When you get in your car and drive somewhere you're not consenting to a collision. Even if you're the cause of the collision that's not something you planned on or intended to have happen. Even though everyone who drives a car knows that if you drive a lot it's inevitable that someday you're going to be in some kind of accident we all consent to driving under the assumption that the safety measures in place are enough to prevent any real damage. Still, regardless of your foreknowledge of the potential for a collision we still conclude that said collision is an accident.
    Obstruction of Justice also applies to overt coercion of court or government officials via the means of threats or actual physical harm and also applying to deliberate sedition against a court official to undermine the appearance of legitimate authority.

  8. #398

    Re: Down to the basics

    Quote Originally Posted by southwest88 View Post
    Allowing men to opt out of fatherhood - actually helping raise the child - is doable, although not recommended for the child's sake. No society in the real world that I know of allows men (or the woman, if she's the one with the financial resources) to opt out of financial responsibility for their offspring.

    What is rebirth in this context?
    Rebirth was autospell error it should of read pre-birth.

    I want to be clear that my position only deals with before birth occurs. After that my position changes and I do believe both parents are liable for that child's welfare.

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    Re: If you are pro-choice, do you think a man should have the choice not to pay alimony?

    Quote Originally Posted by AGENT J View Post
    accidents? you mean something that wasn't an activity that two people consented too . . . yeah your examples dont match and are totally not analogous to the topic here LMAO
    Why are you so vindictive and condemning? Why do you insist on forcing morality on others?

    On who's authority are you trying to do this?
    Better to reign in Hell than serve in Heaven. - Milton

    It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

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    Re: Parents have to face the music

    Quote Originally Posted by trouble13 View Post
    I dont know if you realize this or not but what your now arguing is not far off from what I have been arguing. The details are different in that your applying it to surrogates circumstances and I am applying it to mens circumstances but they the principle at play is similiar.

    The law protects women's choices without regard to all the other parties concerned. The thing I find interesting about injecting surrogates into it is that the law created a paradox because it must choose woman vs woman. It's not surprising to me that the law is conflicted in this area.

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    The surrogate example is one to show that the mother and father, as determined genetically, do not have a direct say in whether their offspring, in the form of a ZEF, gets aborted or not. If the ZEF is not in the mother's body, then she does not get a say, even though those are her genetics.

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    Bi, Poly, Switch. I'm not indecisive, I'm greedy!

    My leaving the conversation does not indicate you won. It means that real life took priority, or I have just tired of your idiocy.

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