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Is assisted suicide murder?

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

DarkWizard12 said:
Then why don't pro-choicers bring up any other bases then? If legality isn't the sole basis, as you have said, for murder, then its legality is irrelevant to the abortion debate. Every pro-lifer knows abortion is legal and pro-choicers know that.
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I don’t consider myself “pro-choice” or “pro-life” (I find them largely divisive labels like so many others) and I’m not going to claim to know the minds of every one of them. I can only comment on what I see and hear.

It’s my experience that the concept of abortion being murder is only brought up by opponents of abortion (why would anyone else mention it?) and when that happens it is indeed challenged by all reasonable people (including other abortion opponents) as irrelevant to the debate. Plenty of other arguments are brought up from all sides of the debate (albeit often on repeat ;) ). The idea that “pro-choicers” never bring up any other basis of argument is just wrong, just as it’d be wrong to suggest “pro-lifers” only ever use the argument that abortion is murder. :cool:
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

HonestJoe said:
I don’t consider myself “pro-choice” or “pro-life” (I find them largely divisive labels like so many others) and I’m not going to claim to know the minds of every one of them. I can only comment on what I see and hear.

It’s my experience that the concept of abortion being murder is only brought up by opponents of abortion (why would anyone else mention it?)
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It's in the pro-choice response. "oh, it's not murder, it's legal!" They need a better response than that, I think.
and when that happens it is indeed challenged by all reasonable people (including other abortion opponents) as irrelevant to the debate. Plenty of other arguments are brought up from all sides of the debate (albeit often on repeat ;) ). The idea that “pro-choicers” never bring up any other basis of argument is just wrong, just as it’d be wrong to suggest “pro-lifers” only ever use the argument that abortion is murder. :cool:
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Ok then. What other bases of murder have pro-choicers brought up? I would like to know.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
Then that's something the prochoice side should figure then, yes?

Do ethics not call for consistency? That's all I'm asking here. If abortion ISN'T murder, because it's legal, then that means assisted suicide is murder, because it's illegal. If consistency is required, and I believe it is, pro-choicers should drop the argument from legality, and argue on basis of ethics.


That's wonderful, but doesn't address the OP in any way.
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But whether abortion is or is not murder is fundamentally an ethical, not legal, question. And this being the case their will be no clear answer acceptable to all. Ethics are ultimately dependent on individual judgements - and therefore are unlikely to be consistent. Inconsistencies are abundant; for example there are many who believe both in the sanctity of life and the death penalty.

You say " ... pro-choicers should drop the argument from legality, and argue on (the) basis of ethics". I agree.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

DarkWizard12 said:
You're just avoiding the question. Murder is 'Illegal killing" Assisted suicide is killing, and most states have ruled it illegal, therefore, how is it not murder? IT meets the pro-choicer listed criteria for murder, that they themselves have voiced.
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You don't know what assisted suicide entails because it is not 'illegal killing'. There is no such crime. It is a separate crime normally called 'aiding and abetting suicide' which is very different than euthanasia or murder because it involves supplying the means for someone to kill themselves, not doing any killing. If you provide the pills or the gun knowing the intent of the user, but do not put those pills in any ones mouth or pull that trigger, you won't normally be charged with murder or killing simply by providing the means, because that act falls on the person who decides to take the pills or pull that trigger. Unless you play an active role in pushing, prodding the suicide towards that aim , its an aiding and abetting charge If you are supplying drugs illegally, of course there are drug charges as well.
 
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Re: I assisted suicide murder?

DarkWizard12 said:
It's in the pro-choice response. "oh, it's not murder, it's legal!" They need a better response than that, I think.
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The don’t need a better response to someone just ranting “Abortion is murder!”. The should (and sometimes do) give a better response to someone presenting a considered argument why abortion is morally wrong.

DarkWizard12 said:
Ok then. What other bases of murder have pro-choicers brought up? I would like to know.
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Again, they don’t bring up murder at all because it’s entirely irrelevant to the issue. The other arguments and points brought up in the debate I was referring to are entirely unrelated to murder.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

HonestJoe said:
The don’t need a better response to someone just ranting “Abortion is murder!”. The should (and sometimes do) give a better response to someone presenting a considered argument why abortion is morally wrong.

Again, they don’t bring up murder at all because it’s entirely irrelevant to the issue. The other arguments and points brought up in the debate I was referring to are entirely unrelated to murder.
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There is a difference between saying "murder is irrelevant to abortion" and saying "no, it's just legal".
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

DarkWizard12 said:
There is a difference between saying "murder is irrelevant to abortion" and saying "no, it's just legal".
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You’re still refusing to acknowledge the context. If the only “argument” someone is offering it shouting “Abortion is murder!”, either of the responses you quote would be valid. None of that makes any kind of meaningful progress in the actual abortion debate.

Or are you trying to suggest “pro-choicers” are saying that because abortion is legal, that’s the end of the debate? You might get some trolls or idiots taking that line but it’s not a common position.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

btthegreat said:
You don't know what assisted suicide entails because it is not 'illegal killing'. There is no such crime. It is a separate crime normally called 'aiding and abetting suicide' which is very different than euthanasia or murder because it involves supplying the means for someone to kill themselves, not doing any killing. If you provide the pills or the gun knowing the intent of the user, but do not put those pills in any ones mouth or pull that trigger, you won't normally be charged with murder or killing simply by providing the means, because that act falls on the person who decides to take the pills or pull that trigger. Unless you play an active role in pushing, prodding the suicide towards that aim , its an aiding and abetting charge If you are supplying drugs illegally, of course there are drug charges as well.
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If bloodthirsty democrat tribal barbarian savages can get assisted suicide legalized soon enough maybe Michelle Carter will not have to go to prison.
 
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