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Is assisted suicide murder?

Re: I assisted suicide murder?

iguanaman said:
Assisted suicide of the terminally ill meets the criteria of a protected right of the individual and so does abortion. Because some States call it illegal does not change the status of that right.
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Ok, ok, now we're going somewhere.

So, couldn't one also say, that just because the court calls something legal, doesn't change the status of the crime? If a state's legal law doesn't stop something from being a protected right, then why should law stop anything from being a heinous murder, despite whatever the court says?
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

DarkWizard12 said:
Because, as the pro-choice side would say, neither of those are illegal. This is 3 times. Does this answer the question?
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No, you didnt answer the question.

What makes killing in self-defense and war not murder? It's a very specific question but there may be a few correct answers.

(And since you are not pro-choice, and you dont seem to understand that position clearly, why do you keep posting what 'you think we believe or say?' How about expressing your own views?)
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

DarkWizard12 said:
Ok, ok, now we're going somewhere.

So, couldn't one also say, that just because the court calls something legal, doesn't change the status of the crime? If a state's legal law doesn't stop something from being a protected right, then why should law stop anything from being a heinous murder, despite whatever the court says?
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Because people do not need the State involved in personal decisions about you own body and when you wish to die. Stop changing the subject.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

DarkWizard12 said:
How is my first statement untrue? Just because a person is prosecuted, doesn't mean they did anything illegal. Look at George Zimmerman, for example.
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Yes, but I didnt say that, you expanded on it.

If someone is charged, it means a crime may have been committed. What is in question when such charges are brought?
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

DarkWizard12 said:
Yea it does. I answered the question. Self-Defense and Killing in war are not illegal in any sense. How then, could they be called murder, according to the pro-choicers? Remember, I'm not arguing from a pro-life position here. I'm arguing from a pro-choice position, that it MUST be illegal for something to be murder, or else it simply doesn't fit the definition.

Is suicide murder? That really depends. I don't think suicide is currently illegal, because you can't prosecute anyone for it. But you would need to correct on that, if it's illegal or not in the US.
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Btw, that is not the position of all pro-choice people. Not sure where you got that.

I thought that this thread was your means to discover if that was true or not.

There are definitely ethical and other legal reasons why abortion should be legally available to women.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

Lursa said:
Yes, but I didnt say that, you expanded on it.

If someone is charged, it means a crime may have been committed. What is in question when such charges are brought?
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I'm sure it changes case by case(such as, technicality, lack of evidence, facts of the case, etc). There is no shortage of people who are charged, and when the facts of the case come out, they did nothing wrong. I'm more interested in principle here. The pro-choices always say that murder is illega killing, which exempts abortion(odd that, they don't debate whether or not it's killing, only whether or not it's illegal, but anyways....) In the vast majority of states, assisted suicide, killing, is illegal. By the same definition then, pro-choicers must also say that assisted suicide is murder. Yet, I find, many of them support assisted suicide. Not all, but some.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

Lursa said:
Btw, that is not the position of all pro-choice people. Not sure where you got that.

I thought that this thread was your means to discover if that was true or not.

There are definitely ethical and other legal reasons why abortion should be legally available to women.
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Well, why is it then, that every time someone says "abortion is murder", people will just snidley say "look up the definition, murder is illegal". I have yet to see anyone from the pro-choice side debate on the merits on whether or not abortion is killing. Maybe you believe abortion isn't really killing life, and if so, I'd like to hear your argument for it. However, if you're just going to address the legal aspect of it, then you would have to admit that assisted suicide is murder, since it is illegal.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

iguanaman said:
Because people do not need the State involved in personal decisions about you own body and when you wish to die. Stop changing the subject.
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This is my thread. If you don't like the subject, you can go somewhere else.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

DarkWizard12 said:
Well, why is it then, that every time someone says "abortion is murder", people will just snidley say "look up the definition, murder is illegal". I have yet to see anyone from the pro-choice side debate on the merits on whether or not abortion is killing. Maybe you believe abortion isn't really killing life, and if so, I'd like to hear your argument for it. However, if you're just going to address the legal aspect of it, then you would have to admit that assisted suicide is murder, since it is illegal.
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Abortion ends a life. That's a scientific fact.

That's objective. It's an objective statement on a topic based on many...mostly...subjective arguments.

Another objective statement is that abortion is not murder, it's legal.

Neither of those objective statements addresses the legal and ethical foundations for legalized abortion.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

Lursa said:
What makes killing in self-defense and war not murder? It's a very specific question but there may be a few correct answers.
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I don't know, you got me then, what's your answer? Maybe killing self defense and in war are actually illegal? The bible would disagree with you there but, I respect that if that's your opinion.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

DarkWizard12 said:
I'm sure it changes case by case(such as, technicality, lack of evidence, facts of the case, etc). There is no shortage of people who are charged, and when the facts of the case come out, they did nothing wrong. I'm more interested in principle here. The pro-choices always say that murder is illega killing, which exempts abortion(odd that, they don't debate whether or not it's killing, only whether or not it's illegal, but anyways....) In the vast majority of states, assisted suicide, killing, is illegal. By the same definition then, pro-choicers must also say that assisted suicide is murder. Yet, I find, many of them support assisted suicide. Not all, but some.
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OK...here's the answer I was thinking of which you seem to be getting at.

Self-defense and war are situations where killing is justified. Thus they're not legally murder. (There are still people that argue that ethically they are).

The majority of Americans believe that abortion is justified.

More and more Americans are supporting a person's choice to end their own life (assisted suicide) is also justified.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

Lursa said:
Abortion ends a life. That's a scientific fact.

That's objective. It's an objective statement on a topic based on many...mostly...subjective arguments.

Another objective statement is that abortion is not murder, it's legal.

Neither of those objective statements addresses the legal and ethical foundations for legalized abortion.
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Right. I didn't challenge any of that. In this thread, I am simply going along with this logic, and saying that, because abortion is objectively not murder because it's legal, as you said, that means that assisted suicide is murder, because it is illegal in a vast majority of states, and even defined as such.

So, I'm not saying I'm pro-choice. I'm just saying, if I agreed with the pro-choice position on abortion, I would have to admit that assisted suicide is murder, because in my state at least, it's illegal and considered murder.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

Lursa said:
OK...here's the answer I was thinking of which you seem to be getting at.

Self-defense and war are situations where killing is justified. Thus they're not legally murder. (There are still people that argue that ethically they are).

The majority of Americans believe that abortion is justified.

More and more Americans are supporting a person's choice to end their own life (assisted suicide) is also justified.
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No. They're not considered murder because they're not illegal.

But let's just assume that you're correct. This means, that the definition of murder is set by the majority of americans. That logic has a lot of holes, and constitutes its own 'appeal to majority' fallacy. Americans opinions change all the time, and have changed. I'm not sure what the current polls are on assisted suicide, but we can at least say that, with so many states have illegalized it, there was at least a certain point in time in which a majority of americans believed that it is murder and unjustified. Now imagine if there were elections on it, you could theoretically have the status of "murder" change every year, based on whichever side happens to coalesce 50%+1 to agree either which way happens to be justified, at any point in time. It simply doesn't work and is, as I pointed out, a fallacy.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "argument to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition must be true because many or most people believe it, often concisely encapsulated as: "If many believe so, it is so
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https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/40/Appeal-to-Popularity
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

DarkWizard12 said:
This is my thread. If you don't like the subject, you can go somewhere else.
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Then stick to your own topic which is assisted suicide and stop equating it with "heinous murder" of others.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

iguanaman said:
Then stick to your own topic which is assisted suicide and stop equating it with "heinous murder".
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I am on topic. This is my thread, I have a lot of leeway on where I can take it. Now please, stop trying to take things personally, and address my post directly.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

DarkWizard12 said:
No. They're not considered murder because they're not illegal.

But let's just assume that you're correct. This means, that the definition of murder is set by the majority of americans. That logic has a lot of holes, and constitutes its own 'appeal to majority' fallacy. Americans opinions change all the time, and have changed. I'm not sure what the current polls are on assisted suicide, but we can at least say that, with so many states have illegalized it, there was at least a certain point in time in which a majority of americans believed that it is murder and unjustified. Now imagine if there were elections on it, you could theoretically have the status of "murder" change every year, based on whichever side happens to coalesce 50%+1 to agree either which way happens to be justified, at any point in time. It simply doesn't work and is, as I pointed out, a fallacy.


https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/40/Appeal-to-Popularity
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*sigh* I was afraid you'd write that. You are vacillating between legal and ethical now.

The framework for abortion is legally established in the Constitution and precedent.

So is the framework for killing in war and self-defense. They arent called out as legal or illegal for no reason...they are determined to be legal because there are legal justifications.

However they are also legal precedents that most Americans 'recognize' as justifiable.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

Lursa said:
*sigh* I was afraid you'd write that. You are vacillating between legal and ethical now.

The framework for abortion is legally established in the Constitution and precedent.

So is the framework for killing in war and self-defense. They arent called out as legal or illegal for no reason...they are determined to be legal because there are legal justifications.

However they are also legal precedents that most Americans 'recognize' as justifiable.
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I don't agree with your appeal to the constitution, but thankfully I don't have to. It's still a fallacy. When appealing to popularity doesn't work for you, you appeal to an authority which is doubtful you understand it. It's a really weird appeal for the pro-choice side because there is hardly any framework for criminal law in the constitution. It only regulates what the states can do. It does not, for example, tell you that you can't defraud your insurance company. It does however, allow the state to make laws and enforce them through appropriate means. Whatever the case, you're still committing the fallacy, and the avoiding the issue here. The issue being that, there is an inconsistency in the pro-choice side.

Even you said as much. It is a sleight of hand for the pro-abortion side to argue the legality of abortion, while ignoring the morality of the issue. You already admitted here that abortion is the killing of a life. Therefore, there is no need to debate it. We can progress, and debate on what basis and universal principles that the government should enforce laws and punish murder. However, to do this, would require the many pro-choicers talk on a level that they're not comfortable with, namely, on the level that maybe, just maybe, the pro-life side just might have a point.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

DarkWizard12 said:
I don't agree with your appeal to the constitution, but thankfully I don't have to. It's still a fallacy. When appealing to popularity doesn't work for you, you appeal to an authority which is doubtful you understand it. It's a really weird appeal for the pro-choice side because there is hardly any framework for criminal law in the constitution. It only regulates what the states can do. It does not, for example, tell you that you can't defraud your insurance company. It does however, allow the state to make laws and enforce them through appropriate means. Whatever the case, you're still committing the fallacy, and the avoiding the issue here. The issue being that, there is an inconsistency in the pro-choice side.

Even you said as much. It is a sleight of hand for the pro-abortion side to argue the legality of abortion, while ignoring the morality of the issue. You already admitted here that abortion is the killing of a life. Therefore, there is no need to debate it. We can progress, and debate on what basis and universal principles that the government should enforce laws and punish murder. However, to do this, would require the many pro-choicers talk on a level that they're not comfortable with, namely, on the level that maybe, just maybe, the pro-life side just might have a point.
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Ah, if it's "sleight of hand" to find abortion supported by Constitutional law and precedent...is your opinion the same for killing in war and self-defense?

What would your opinion be based on?

And states may not make laws that overrule the rights recognized by the Constitution. There are some laws that do so...many of those are accepted *by popular consensus* and thus not challenged. Others are challenged and overturned.

And one must be delusional to not believe the killing of the unborn isnt killing. No pro-choice people hold that position. A common question for pro-choice people is, "who says the unborn are entitled to a right to life?" Do you have an answer for that? I'd be interested in reading it.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
*Is assisted suicide murder?

Can a mod fix the title for me?


Assisted suicide is illegal in some states. Since people like to argue about the "legality" qualifier in the definition of murder, I would wonder how many pro-choicers would call someone who does assisted suicide a murderer, or how many of them would demonstrate with signs saying "assisted suicide is murder".
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If it is suicide then it can not be murder...
 
I really wish assisted suicide was legal.
If it was legal, It could be preceded with counseling. Counseling could possibly reduce the number of suicides in this country just like it reduces the number of abortions in this nation.

If my doctor told me I have cancer at the age of 75+, I would like to have the opportunity to die comfortably under the supervision of a qualified health professional. Notice I did not say doctor, that would be a complete waste of money and they are needed to save the lives of younger patients.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

Lursa said:
Ah, if it's "sleight of hand" to find abortion supported by Constitutional law and precedent...is your opinion the same for killing in war and self-defense?
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Yes. The constitution does not address killing in war or self defense. The constitution only provides for regulation of the state of how to address criminal law, for example, trial by jury, due process, equal protection or speedy trial. Defining things like murder or abortion is something that the constitution doesn't do. So yes, saying that the constitution defines and illegalizes killing in such examples, is something the constitution just doesn't do. It is not only a sleight of hand, but delusional, to say that it does.

https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2013/07/which-3-crimes-are-in-the-us-constitution.html
What would your opinion be based on?
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The constitution in this case.
And states may not make laws that overrule the rights recognized by the Constitution. There are some laws that do so...many of those are accepted *by popular consensus* and thus not challenged. Others are challenged and overturned.
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The constitution says nothing about murder or assisted suicide. It does say this, however: "The Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution provides, in relevant part, that: [N]or shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

It doesn't specify what makes something a crime, but only that there must be a process for deciding a crime based on reasonable means.
And one must be delusional to not believe the killing of the unborn isnt killing. No pro-choice people hold that position. A common question for pro-choice people is, "who says the unborn are entitled to a right to life?" Do you have an answer for that? I'd be interested in reading it.
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That's because killing the unborn is killing, and the only thing argue is whether or not it should be illegal.
 
DarkWizard12 said:
*Is assisted suicide murder?

Can a mod fix the title for me?


Assisted suicide is illegal in some states. Since people like to argue about the "legality" qualifier in the definition of murder, I would wonder how many pro-choicers would call someone who does assisted suicide a murderer, or how many of them would demonstrate with signs saying "assisted suicide is murder".
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In the case of Terri Schiavo assisted suicide was definitely a case of brutal heartless democrat government sponsored cold blooded murder. The biggest problem with legalizing assisted suicide is that many crafty devils can find a way to commit murder and get away with it.
 
marke said:
In the case of Terri Schiavo assisted suicide was definitely a case of brutal heartless democrat government sponsored cold blooded murder. The biggest problem with legalizing assisted suicide is that many crafty devils can find a way to commit murder and get away with it.
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There are things worst than death.
 
Re: I assisted suicide murder?

JeffreyB said:
slaves didn't have rights either but it didn't make it right and we eventually corrected that mistake just as i hope we will with this one some day. it wasn't against there will ( 95 percent of abortions) when they had sex and got pregnant, no person has the right to kill another for there own personal connivance.
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What are they conniving to do?

Abortion was once illegal, which was wrong but we corrected that mistake and made it legal. It will remain legal for the foreseeable future.
 
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