Perspectives on abortion

Waddy said:

There should be a choice; if the woman wants to keep the baby but the father does not, absolve him of responsibility. problem solved.

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Off-topic. Start a thread complaining about men not wanting to be held responsible for their own decisions somewhere else.

Lursa said:

Off-topic. Start a thread complaining about men not wanting to be held responsible for their own decisions somewhere else.

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Sorry, you don't get to dictate what I post. I think it relates nicely to the topic.

Ursula said:

Sorry, this might be rambly. This is a subject I feel very strongly about.

I identify as pro-choice. I believe abortion should be safe and accessible to any woman who needs one up to the point of viability. Past the point of viability, abortion still needs to be safe and available for those with medical complications.

Don't get me wrong. I don't like the idea of abortion. I wish no woman ever had to make that choice, and I can understand where most pro-life people are coming from. I just have a different idea of how abortion should be prevented.

I'm a liberal living in a fairly conservative area. Many of the people I know are pro-life, but some of the things I have seen show up on my facebook feed in response to recent happenings in NY have shocked and horrified me. I can get if you believe life begins at conception and all life is valuable, and that this might be why you oppose elective abortions, even if I personally don't agree, but I have recently learned that many of my pro-life friends are opposed to termination, under any circumstance, even when the life of the mother is in imminent danger. They keep sharing stories of women who had dangerous pregnancy complications or found out they had a terminal illness that couldn't be treated without termination and choose not to terminate. They call it a miracle if the women survive against all odds, and praise them for choosing such a noble death if they don't. They seem all-in on legislation that would make abortion illegal, no matter what, even if the fetus is unlikely to, or definitely won't survive. They even seem opposed to early induced labor if it means a baby might be born prematurely, because of the health risks associated with being born early.

I just don't understand how you can can say all life is equally important, but then support legislation that would put fetal life above the life of the mother. I feel like I'm being told that my life is valued by my ability to reproduce successfully, and if I can't do that, then I deserve to die. How many people out there really think this? Is this a thing that's only pervasive in the religious conservative populations in areas like mine, or is this a widespread view?

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Women using abortion is a great post conception option... men should have the same option though because as it stands men face persecution and lack of post conception equal rights under the umbrella of civil rights...

Lursa said:

Off-topic. Start a thread complaining about men not wanting to be held responsible for their own decisions somewhere else.

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Coming from the Straw Man woman herself...

Bodhisattva said:

Coming from the Straw Man woman herself...

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I dont remember saying your name 3 times.


And it's about the law...and not abortion law...so it does not belong in this sub-forum.

Bodhisattva said:

Women using abortion is a great post conception option... men should have the same option though because as it stands men face persecution and lack of post conception equal rights under the umbrella of civil rights...

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When men get pregnant, and some do these days, they have the exact same post conception options. They can keep or abort a pregnancy.

And the laws protect them from men or women from forcing them to have an abortion, as was suggested.

How do you see the laws changing regarding men's and women's rights that currently forbid anyone from forcing them to have abortions?..that is Waddy's hope.

Obviously it's not about equality, since in the exact same situations, men and women are protected equally here and have equal rights regarding their own pregnancies AND post conception. :mrgreen:

Does anyone disagree that today, some men do indeed gestate their young? One way/label or another? That's a fact so again, equal!

The big question that gets brought up on this topic is at what point does life begin? Conception? Birth?

Consider this:
In many states if a pregnant woman, lets say she is 12 weeks along, is shot during a robbery, and both her, and her unborn child are killed, the suspect is most likely charged with two counts of murder. On the other hand a pregnant woman in the same state, wakes up one morning and decided for whatever reason she doesn't want to be pregnant any longer can pay a doctor to end what would be considered a life in the other scenario, but some how is not a life in this scenario just because the mother changed her mind?

I'm prochioce with limits. It based on trying for equal legal and human rights.
my stance is about my country and my fellow americans's freedom, laws, rights and liberties. It''s about womans rights VS ZEFs rights. Whats right for "me" doesnt need forced on others and as an american I refuse to be that type of hypocrite. Just cause I dont like abortion and wish it wasnt needed doesnt mean I should foolishly push it to be outlawed (which would do very little to stop it)

In reality on the abortion front, equal rights are impossible. The women currently has rights and unfortunately the ZEF has very little to none. BUT the issus is one will always have more rights than the other, in reality it doesnt work any other way. Since those are the only choices of course I obviously side with the already born, viable human being who is also a citizen over the unknown. Because thats what a ZEF is, an unknown, that is not already born viable or a citizen and may not even become one.

I could never condone the government forcing a women against her will to go through 9 months of pregnancy and then after that forcing her to give birth against her will. Both to these things can physically/mentally harm her and or kill her. To a women who doesnt want to do this, it certainly sounds like government torture to me. Does that come off dramatic? yes it does but in reality is it? what would you call forcing a women to do those things against her will? Also during those 9 months if she is being forced, her rights, freedoms, liberties and pursuit of happiness are also taken away from her against her will.

The bottome line is we ALL pick one enity over the other the only difference is when and why . . . all honest people admit this. In most cases I pick the woman over the ZEF i cant pick the ZEF over the woman.


Im for:
improved sex education
improved technologies for birth control
improved access to and low cost/free birth control
improved access and better health care for families (orgs like PP etc.)
Improved social programs and jobs program for new families and single parents
Improved and equal parental rights for optout
complete overhaul of the foster care system. It cant handle the kids it has now im in no rush to add more until its fixed
Id be ok with but wouldnt push for a national cap (time frame on how late an abortion can be). Maybe like 20-21wkks but this cap would be a SOFT cap and each case would be circumstantial. Im good with Roe v. Wade. I personally like to legislate fetal rights at the time frame also.

It be great to have less abortions but that only comes with whats listed above not law enforcement.
And I know it will sound weird but abortion is actually extremely low percentage wise right now, Id like to see it lower but it is very low if compare a million abortions a year to the amount of sex people are actually having.
ified. If you want expansion on that ill gladly provided it.

JLee1977 said:

The big question that gets brought up on this topic is at what point does life begin? Conception? Birth?

Consider this:
In many states if a pregnant woman, lets say she is 12 weeks along, is shot during a robbery, and both her, and her unborn child are killed, the suspect is most likely charged with two counts of murder. On the other hand a pregnant woman in the same state, wakes up one morning and decided for whatever reason she doesn't want to be pregnant any longer can pay a doctor to end what would be considered a life in the other scenario, but some how is not a life in this scenario just because the mother changed her mind?

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wrong, its always "life" nobody denies that a ZEF is alive
what you are talkgin about is person which is VERY different and the HUGE difference is the life you are referrign to is inside another and a threat to it.

AGENT J said:

wrong, its always "life" nobody denies that a ZEF is alive
what you are talkgin about is person which is VERY different and the HUGE difference is the life you are referrign to is inside another and a threat to it.

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I never said that the "life" posed a threat to the mother. In many states the woman doesn't have to even give a reason why she wants to end her pregnancy.

I think it is the woman's decision and choice to carry the baby full term or not. Certainly under the Ninth Amendment she has that right.

Abortions should be performed in safe and sanitary conditions meeting the highest medical standards.

JLee1977 said:

The big question that gets brought up on this topic is at what point does life begin? Conception? Birth?

Consider this:
In many states if a pregnant woman, lets say she is 12 weeks along, is shot during a robbery, and both her, and her unborn child are killed, the suspect is most likely charged with two counts of murder. On the other hand a pregnant woman in the same state, wakes up one morning and decided for whatever reason she doesn't want to be pregnant any longer can pay a doctor to end what would be considered a life in the other scenario, but some how is not a life in this scenario just because the mother changed her mind?

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A woman has a right to choose. A killer does not have a right to make that choice for the woman.

JLee1977 said:

1.)I never said that the "life" posed a threat to the mother.
2.) In many states the woman doesn't have to even give a reason why she wants to end her pregnancy.

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1.) you dont need to thats just the facts :shrug:
2.) as far as i know thats how it is in EVERY state untill a certain time fram and how it should be

regardless your example does match at all

So if I get a girl pregnant, she can abort my child without my permission. But if I don’t want to be a father she can still have the kid & put my whiteass on child support. How is that fair?

Ursula said:

They call it a miracle if the women survive against all odds, and praise them for choosing such a noble death if they don't. They seem all-in on legislation that would make abortion illegal, no matter what

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I have long said that childbirth as a whole is a noble if not heroic gesture. Even if there are no complications that could lead to death the pain, suffering and bodily deformation that the woman must endure is itself sacrifice enough that it deserves to be classified as heroic. It is roughly equivalent to donating a kidney or being a firefighter. But you can't force heroism upon someone against their will. You cannot force some against their will to endure torture bodily deformation, and potentially risk life and limb for the benefit of someone else. Even if it is to save their life. That can only ever be the choice of there person who has to do it.

The worst we could ever say is that women who abort are cowards, but never criminals. No one is qualified to judge the actions of another person in that situation. Even for a woman who has gone through it and had children, it doesn't matter. Each pregnancy is different and affects every woman differently. Many women can't wait to have children and see pregnancy as a great privilege in the same way that some men can't wait to join the military and consider it a privilege to serve. But that's not for everyone and forcing people to do it against their will is immoral.

Some will say we've had military drafts in the past, and you can technically charge someone with cowardice if they retreat too soon, but those ideas were both stupid ideas of the past just like bans on abortion.

SmokethatGreen said:

So if I get a girl pregnant, she can abort my child without my permission. But if I don’t want to be a father she can still have the kid & put my whiteass on child support. How is that fair?

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How would you make it fair?

If there is a child, the law holds both parent equally responsible. Financially and hopefully with joint custody at least. These days, fathers are getting more and more fairly treated in terms of custody agreements, as it should be.

If you dont want to risk a kid you dont want...make that decision before you take the risk...you are aware of the consequences.

SmokethatGreen said:

So if I get a girl pregnant, she can abort my child without my permission. But if I don’t want to be a father she can still have the kid & put my whiteass on child support. How is that fair?

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How is it fair that women get pregnant and men don't?

Child support is about the child's needs, not the parents. And the mother has to pay for it, too.

bongsaway said:

I would rather forget the fetus in question than the walking breathing mother. I so wish the people who are against abortion would have the same fervor about getting most guns out of society. If I had to guess, we have more shooting deaths each year from living, breathing, walking people than abortions?Where is your concern for those victims? Pro-choice. Justs like owning a gun is pro-choice.

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I don't want to remove much of the attention from the OP - However, this is not even close.

Since 2000 - Average yearly abortions have been over 600,000 (Specific numbers are available through the CDC.) Several years since then (2000) we have seen over 800,000.

If memory serves me correctly, average deaths by firearm per year are 40,000? Obviously that is not a specific number but I do believe it is closely accurate.

I would agree it is reasonable to place the importance of the living, breathing and aged woman/mother over the unborn fetus/baby.

SmokethatGreen said:

So if I get a girl pregnant, she can abort my child without my permission. But if I don’t want to be a father she can still have the kid & put my whiteass on child support. How is that fair?

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It is the law. The law is fair about a born child’s support. Both bio parents are required by law to help support a born child.