Serious and Honest Question For Pro-Life Men

Conaeolos said:

If it was considered a restrictive medical procedure it allows for normal medical ethical guidelines. Doctors can use their medical ethics to determine medical rational with only extreme cases being a legal matter. Indivudal aborters found guilty of unjustified abortion would be sentenced to mandatory treatment. This similar to how one might treat laws surrounding suicide and child welfare.

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Drs can use medical ethics to decline performing abortions now.

The rest of your post does not address the violation of women's Constitutional rights and bodily sovereignty and self-determination. Legally or ethically.

Again, you are claiming rights and potential futures for the unborn at the expense of the mother. Why?

You are still demonstrating a value for the unborn superseding that of women.

Conaeolos said:

No, I would argue the rights of the unborn are far more restrictive than that of an adult citizen or even a born child.That does not mean they are without rights. Children already have restricted rights. This is not a far out concept.

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The unborn have zero rights in the US.

Conaeolos said:

I do not follow as to the difference
...is her quality of life affected? Yes temporailiy as a consquence of her choice to have sex.
...is her self-detemination affected? Yes temporailiy as a consquence of protecting the life of her child.
...is her bodily sovereignty affected? In so much as her bodily sovereignty is now shared between two lives: hers and her childs. Both intrests need to be considered. Not equally but fairly.
...is her rights affected? Restricting one's ability to kill a child is not a rights violation no.

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Temporarily is a falsehood.

If a woman gives birth, her body is never the same. And in many cases severe health complications follow the rest of her life. It's common.

As for missed professional opportunities, educational opportunities, improving economic status, it's also false to state that those things are ever recovered. That's just sugar-coating that you'd like people to believe. It may even preclude the creation of a more stable family later. So your 'temporary' is just a convenient claim to make it seem like women are making frivolous decisions.

And again, there's no child being killed. The emotional manipulation doesnt work well in this sub-forum.

There's a fair amount of dissonance from the far right over this matter: pro war, pro guns and pro life.

Abortion? Bad.
Shooting unarmed black men? justified.
Bombing Muslim babies? 'Collateral damage'.
School shootings? The price of 'freedom'.
Death penalty? Awesome, let's extend it to women who abort.
Welfare and support? Hell no, once they're born they can starve!

On top of all that the Book Of Numbers in the Bible actually recommends abortion as a means of punishing women suspected of infidelity.

I do not have the patience to peel away the layers of hypocrisy.

Anyhow my answer is becoming circular…but:

Lursa said:

It's factually not murder, as you've been told so it's silly to keep writing it.

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Hardly. What I agreed is under definition of a law there might be a distinction due to just sentencing; other, than that point no argument what so ever has made a distinction that the act of killing an unborn child intentionally and due to the feelings of the mother in any way does not consitute murder. I do agree pragmatically it has more in common with sucide.That said, it very much is an act of intentional killing i.e. murder.

if a woman cannot care for a child, then it would be justifiable not to produce the child.

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As testified by every child welfare case ever: you can not kill/hurt/abuse a child due to you feeling/being unprepared only refrain from having one.

Who are strangers or the govt to determine what she is capable of? Certainly finances are a great part of that. It's perfectly responsible to choose abortion rather than add another unwanted/unaffordable child to the population.

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We can agree that would be a worse nightmare…

Where did you address the 100,000 kids already waiting, in limbo, that would be actively harmed by the addition of more kids into an already desperately full pool that all wish to escape and find homes?

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Being an orphan does not give society the right to kill you. No.

And I didnt say it was worse to be an orphan...I wrote clearly that for each NEW child added to that large #, it means one of those aware, suffering, waiting...ends up with less chance of a family. *Increasing* a societal problem...and living children's pain.

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It does not change the argument to highlight it may be good for unadopted kids.The state of adoptions in this country is it's own mess…but I'd agree if we chhose to look at abortion as a social engineering policy, it might be a "good" one. Doesn't morally justify it. Doesn't make it good policy.

cpwill said:

So, I hate this forum, and realize this reply is about to be endlessly attacked by a legion.

BUT, you said you had serious, and honest, questions for folks in my position, so I'll answer




....somewhat. I believe than an unborn human child is still a human child, and while our governing system declares that humans have basic rights, that is certainly buttressed by my faith, which says that each human being is a special creation of our God, and that children, especially, are loved by Christ. This same blending (American declaration of inherent, individual, human rights, Christian care for the person) gave us the anti-slavery movement, which I draw a lot of parallels to, here.



Nope.



The same thing that feeds my ideological position on slavery.



Sort of - birthrates are declining and, according to most demographers, at least, the global human populace should peak in the 2050's, and then begin falling. Our problem in the advanced countries (and China) is that we have too few children for the policy structures we have in place, not too many.

That, however, is not in and of itself a reason to ban abortion.



We don't "need" "unwanted" street kids, either. Rounding them up and killing them would still be horrifically wrong.



Hm. As a man I would say I have a desire to protect. More generally, however, as an American - and, yes, Christian - I think that each life is something special.



Sure. The same is true of slavery. That doesn't mean we should decriminalize slavery, or stop trying to reduce its incidence as much as possible.



So.... we should decriminalize rape, then? Keep Our Laws Off Men's Bodies? Have the government step in to fund and ensure safer, cleaner rapes?

.....or is the fact that rape continues to occur not, actually, all that great an argument against its' criminalization, because women have rights, and others shouldn't violate them?

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Thanks for your well thought out reply. Not sure if it'll be "endlessly attacked" or not. Some of it might be debated.

I will ask this though.

If god/jesus think/thought each and every life was precious, why has god mercilessly and directly killed so many children and babies, as well as pregnant women and such?

Other than the whole "god works in mysterious ways" kinda thing.

One situation like the angels being sent to kill the first born child in every household thing. How many innocent babies were killed directly by god there?
Doesn't sound like he cares quite so much about innocent babies not being murdered to prove a point.

Or, how many pregnant women, babies, and children were drowned (murdered by god) during the whole Noah and the Ark thing?

The biblical god doesn't seem at shy at all when it comes to murdering/killing/exterminating human life.

Conaeolos said:

Anyhow my answer is becoming circular…but:

Hardly. What I agreed is under definition of a law there might be a distinction due to just sentencing; other, than that point no argument what so ever has made a distinction that the act of killing an unborn child intentionally and due to the feelings of the mother in any way does not consitute murder. I do agree pragmatically it has more in common with sucide.That said, it very much is an act of intentional killing i.e. murder.


As testified by every child welfare case ever: you can not kill/hurt/abuse a child due to you feeling/being unprepared only refrain from having one.

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It's so odd you keep referring to the unborn as a child and writing as if the laws pertaining to children apply to the unborn *in any way.*

They do not. The fact that you would like them to is your opinion. And so far, not supported ethically, IMO, when considered against the harm to women, girls, and society of restricting elective abortion.

You just typing your opinion over and over, without addressing the aspect of 'how' there would be legal justification of using force of law on women to demand they remain pregnant is still wanting. Of what it would take to create law that would require violating women's Constitutional rights.

We see that you value the unborn more than women and would feel 'ok' with those violations. It's a common pro-life position. But that's not the law, it's not ethical IMO, and it's not the way American society sees it either, per every poll on abortion.

Conaeolos said:

Being an orphan does not give society the right to kill you. No.

It does not change the argument to highlight it may be good for unadopted kids.The state of adoptions in this country is it's own mess…but I'd agree if we chhose to look at abortion as a social engineering policy, it might be a "good" one. Doesn't morally justify it. Doesn't make it good policy.

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Nope, that dog dont hunt either. I never implied killing any orphans. That manipulation doesnt fly.

You are dishonestly ignoring the real harm: that done to the children...aware and hoping...for families. By your desire to enable the birth of more unwanted/unaffordable kids that would then compete with them for homes. That's real, it's a fact. It's not going to go away just because you like to use emotionally manipulative rhetoric.

Conaeolos said:

BTW, we already have cases where a person forced an abortion unwilling on a mother and they've been convicted of murder. So politics aside its bad laws on the books….if you see a difference, please start explaining....

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Never heard of this, altho I am aware of men that have intentionally secretly (or not so secretly) caused women to miscarry. They were charged...for damages to the mother, nothing on behalf of the unborn.

So no idea what law you are referring to...please source the cases and law.

Elvira said:

I care because God cares...the Bible's viewpoint is that human life begins at conception...Psalm 139:13-16...the life of the unborn is precious...Exodus 21:22,23...

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No, that's not even remotely what the bible says.

Lev 17 10-14: "'For the life of the flesh is in the blood"

Blood doesn't start in a fetus until the 5th gestational week.

Since, my opinion is so clarified, what are the thoughts on feticide laws for those who don't think abortion is in any context murder? Why does the standard apply to those outside but not to the mother?

Dragonfly said:

Thanks for your well thought out reply. Not sure if it'll be "endlessly attacked" or not. Some of it might be debated.

I will ask this though.

If god/jesus think/thought each and every life was precious, why has god mercilessly and directly killed so many children and babies, as well as pregnant women and such?

Other than the whole "god works in mysterious ways" kinda thing.

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well,

1. It seems a fairly safe assumption that the understanding of a semi-intelligent ape with a lifespan measured in a couple of decades perched on an out-of-the-way ball of dirt in one corner of a solar system is going to be significantly less than the understanding of an infinite, creative being who holds within Himself a universe containing billions of galaxies and all of time. From the view of the ape, the ways and thoughts of God would sort of have to be beyond their understanding.

I would posit, if anything, if those actions and thoughts are sometimes not beyond our understanding, then it's probably not God we are discussing, but rather human anthropomorphization of something. Stories about the Greek gods, for example, are all too human.

2. That, however, doesn't really seem to actually address the question of abortion; it seems more a reiteration of the Problem of Evil.

One situation like the angels being sent to kill the first born child in every household thing. How many innocent babies were killed directly by god there?

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Weighed against a people freed? And how many saved? Over the long term?

The Civil War was atrocious - hundreds of thousands died, were maimed, an entire generation was decimated. And we hold that it was worth it to end slavery. WWII was horrendous - more civilians died than military - with a million deaths a month, towards the end. And, we hold that it was worth it.

If you want to discuss the Problem of Evil, we certainly can do so. In the meantime, I rather suspect that God's view is a bit broader, and a bit longer, than our own .

However, that's not really an addressal of anything that I wrote in response to the question of my motivations concerning abortion.

Conaeolos said:

Since, my opinion is so clarified, what are the thoughts on feticide laws for those who don't think abortion is in any context murder? Why does the standard apply to those outside but not to the mother?

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How about answering the other, direct questions you were asked, first. After all...if your basic premise is that abortion is murder, then you'd only see feticide that way as well.

We have your answers on feticide laws most likely. Minnie has quite a few links and I can summarize pretty well.

After all of the years that I’ve posted in this forum I just can’t get over the disrespect that so many men have for women. It’s obscene, really.

I hate to use the term, “fetus pimps”, but there just no other better term for so many pro-life, especially pro-life men.

Lursa said:

How about answering the other, direct questions you were asked, first.

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I am unintrested in circling and have not seen a question I have not at some point addressed.

After all...if your basic premise is that abortion is murder, then you'd only see feticide that way as well.

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Correct. I am intrested in how you are distinguishing these two as I suspect it will have more points of agreement of which we may be able to use to make some progress in said discussion.

We have your answers on feticide laws most likely. Minnie has quite a few links and I can summarize pretty well.

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Great. Point me to your favourite address.

Conaeolos said:

I am unintrested in circling and have not seen a question I have not at some point addressed.

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Well yes, you have circled and circled in an effort to not address that according a right to life to the unborn would violate women's Constitutional rights and bodily sovereignty, self-determination, etc.

This seems acceptable to you, thus indicating that you value the unborn more than women.

In terms of justification, I have also repeated myself in attempting to show that there is harm to women, girls, and society in restricting elective abortion.

I value the unborn, but I value all born people more. So my position reflects that.

Women get to choose what is best for their lives and that of their families, current and future.

The abortion rate goes down every year.

Most women choose to have their babies.

By no means would govt force demanding women remain pregnant against their wills EVER be morally acceptable to me. The effects on women, girls, society, and everyone's Constitutional rights would never justify that.

And I've asked you to provide your opinion 'justifying' it...with more than just glib comments about women's 'feelings.' Can you?

Conaeolos said:

Correct. I am intrested in how you are distinguishing these two as I suspect it will have more points of agreement of which we may be able to use to make some progress in said discussion.


Great. Point me to your favourite address.

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I dont save Minnie's links. She can post them if she sees this.

However the feticide laws on the books treat the unborn similar to property and the charges are brought on behalf of damages to the mother and/or the state.

So even feticide laws recognize no rights for the unborn nor recognize the unborn as children.

Lursa said:

according a right to life to the unborn would violate women's Constitutional rights and bodily sovereignty, self-determination, etc.

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I can not address that question as I don't follow the internal logic of that question. It does not follow that protecting the right to life of the unborn would violate any rights of the mother let alone ones protected by current us law. The examples you listed are so abstract from the claims it doesn't help illustrate the point IMHO.

I was going to try to respond with a legal argument for pro-life position but ultimately decided it would be fruitless without some type of common ground on the moral front - I was hopeful we can get there on feticide but it seems not.

If for you though the unborn are at best legally categorized as property and forceful moral intervention for suicide generally not justifiable. I am not sure where we could possibly go. I think you're wrong - you think I am and it is going to be hard to find common ground on the subject.

If it helps, I'll never support putting women and/or doctors going to jail over abortion. I will not though stop passionately advocating for protections of the life of the unborn. Values conflict I suppose.

Conaeolos said:

I can not address that question as I don't follow the internal logic of that question. It does not follow that protecting the right to life of the unborn would violate any rights of the mother let alone ones protected by current us law. The examples you listed are so abstract from the claims it doesn't help illustrate the point IMHO.
.

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Then I cant overcome your limitations on thought if you cannot imagine what would be required of the govt to enforce laws making elective abortion illegal. Rights of due process, privacy, liberty, are not 'abstract.'

Conaeolos said:

I was going to try to respond with a legal argument for pro-life position but ultimately decided it would be fruitless without some type of common ground on the moral front - I was hopeful we can get there on feticide but it seems not.

If for you though the unborn are at best legally categorized as property and forceful moral intervention for suicide generally not justifiable. I am not sure where we could possibly go. I think you're wrong - you think I am and it is going to be hard to find common ground on the subject.

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The law considers the unborn similar to property, not me.

And while I dont like suicide (or abortion) I feel any mentally competent adult has the right to make those decisions for themselves. It's incredibly arrogant to believe we know what's best for another adult individual's life...or that we deserve to interfere in it using the law.

Conaeolos said:

If it helps, I'll never support putting women and/or doctors going to jail over abortion. I will not though stop passionately advocating for protections of the life of the unborn. Values conflict I suppose.

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Good to hear. I'm happy to discuss on the basis of ethics as well. My interest is in how people justify valuing one over the other, because they "cannot be treated equally." Not legally, not ethically, not practically. I posted my position clearly, with some justifications, in post 65.

Here's a few to start considering, if you care to discuss:

If you think the mother's will should be overcome to give birth, you do not value both equally. You are valuing the unborn over women.

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Interestingly enough...I've discovered a pretty clear dividing line for "acceptable" for pro-life people. It's viewed the same very very frequently.

+If it's the woman's 'fault' she got pregnant (she enjoyed sex, her birth control failed, etc.) then she should not be allowed to have an abortion.

+If it wasnt her fault (rape, severe medical issues, incest as a minor) then she should be allowed to have an abortion.

So what we can see here is that:

--obviously most pro-life people do not view the unborn as equal... If the unborn was truly equal, you could not terminate it's life in cases of rape or incest or even the mother's life to some extent. (THere are a few pro-life people that do believe you cannot terminate the unborn in these circumstances and at least they are consistent.)

-- most pro-life people care more about judging and punishing a woman than they care for that 'innocent life'. (yeah, considering it punishment because the unborn is frequently referred to as a 'consequence')

So IMO the dividing line re: abortion for pro-life supporters has nothing to do with the unborn, it's all about the woman and how they judge her culpability in the pregnancy.

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And in terms of the ethics of responsibility and towards society:

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid you cant afford and expecting tax payers to take up that burden with public assistance.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid you arent emotionally prepared to have and may abuse or neglect. That perpetuates a dangerous cycle that affects all society.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid if you know you wont stop drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc that will damage the unborn. And then likely to be abandoned with even less chance of adoption.

--There's nothing responsible about remaining pregnant and dropping out of high school or college or missing work and not fulfilling your potential in society.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid and giving it up for adoption when there are already over 100,000 kids in America waiting to be adopted. It means one less waiting will find a home.

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Removable Mind said:

:applaud

Ohio is trying to push a law that not only gives personhood rights to a zygote, but also impose a severe prison sentence for abortion AND for the State to have the right to murder women in prison for having an abortion. This type of belief system is coming from extreme right religious zealots.

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It won't pass a court challenge, thankfully.

Why do you care about this topic? <--- serious and honest question

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Because children are an opportunity

What is it exactly that drives your passion here?

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Is it based on a religious belief? (be honest here)

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Some residual religious beliefs, yes.

Is it centered around something else? What would that something else be?

Is it perhaps that you fear having no control over a situation you might find yourself in?

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It's not physically possible anymore, but in the past, perhaps

I get that you feel it's "wrong". There's lots of "wrongs" in the world. Lots.

What is it that feeds your ideology on this one topic?

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As a male/man, what is it exactly that drives your passion in this?
As a male/man, why do you care?

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Simple, it's my progeny being killed. Women should have the same perspective.

Even if a woman is raped, if she has an abortion, she is killing her progeny.

Why do you care about this topic? <--- serious and honest question

I doubt you are asking seriously and honestly. Reading your follow up questions indicates you have an agenda. It's fine to have an agenda, however just admit it.

Also, your questions seem to attempt to bait others, and lead them towards a conclusion.

What is it exactly that drives your passion here?

Is it based on a religious belief? (be honest here)

I do happen to be religious, but no.

Is it centered around something else?
What would that something else be?

Is the implication here that I couldn't possibly have well-researched and thoughtful reasons to oppose abortion?

Is it perhaps that you fear having no control over a situation you might find yourself in?

No, this is a strawman.

I get that you feel it's "wrong". There's lots of "wrongs" in the world. Lots.

This reeks of condescension!!!

What is it that feeds your ideology on this one topic?

Reason and Biology

The human race is still growing in population.

So what?

There's no rational fear of human beings going extinct due to "choice" regarding pregnancy.

Straw man, no one is making this argument.

We don't "need" unwanted babies for the human race to carry on.

Another, straw man.

As a male/man, what is it exactly that drives your passion in this?

I shouldn't be engaged with the issues of the day?

As a male/man, why do you care?

Are you implying we shouldn't care for some reason?

Also, please know that simply making abortion illegal won't make abortion go away. You do know that right?

Yes, we know that, we aren't stupid! And insulting us, and talking down to us isn't a convincing argument. No one argues that it will go away.

Heroin, cocaine, meth, and plenty of pills are all illegal and can be found in every high school in America just about.

So? How is this germane?

Rape is illegal and it happens at alarming rates.

So what?

So why? Why do you care?

Why do YOU care, and better yet, why do you imply that I should care less than you do?

And just so there is no hard feelings, here's a picture of my cat! His name's Howard, and he's a very good boy!!

Enjoy your day

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

Removable Mind said:

After all of the years that I’ve posted in this forum I just can’t get over the disrespect that so many men have for women. It’s obscene, really.

I hate to use the term, “fetus pimps”, but there just no other better term for so many pro-life, especially pro-life men.

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50% of women are also pro-life....

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

grizzlycatholic said:

Why do you care about this topic? <--- serious and honest question

I doubt you are asking seriously and honestly. Reading your follow up questions indicates you have an agenda. It's fine to have an agenda, however just admit it.

Also, your questions seem to attempt to bait others, and lead them towards a conclusion.

What is it exactly that drives your passion here?

Is it based on a religious belief? (be honest here)

I do happen to be religious, but no.

Is it centered around something else?
What would that something else be?

Is the implication here that I couldn't possibly have well-researched and thoughtful reasons to oppose abortion?

Is it perhaps that you fear having no control over a situation you might find yourself in?

No, this is a strawman.

I get that you feel it's "wrong". There's lots of "wrongs" in the world. Lots.

This reeks of condescension!!!

What is it that feeds your ideology on this one topic?

Reason and Biology

The human race is still growing in population.

So what?

There's no rational fear of human beings going extinct due to "choice" regarding pregnancy.

Straw man, no one is making this argument.

We don't "need" unwanted babies for the human race to carry on.

Another, straw man.

As a male/man, what is it exactly that drives your passion in this?

I shouldn't be engaged with the issues of the day?

As a male/man, why do you care?

Are you implying we shouldn't care for some reason?

Also, please know that simply making abortion illegal won't make abortion go away. You do know that right?

Yes, we know that, we aren't stupid! And insulting us, and talking down to us isn't a convincing argument. No one argues that it will go away.

Heroin, cocaine, meth, and plenty of pills are all illegal and can be found in every high school in America just about.

So? How is this germane?

Rape is illegal and it happens at alarming rates.

So what?

So why? Why do you care?

Why do YOU care, and better yet, why do you imply that I should care less than you do?

And just so there is no hard feelings, here's a picture of my cat! His name's Howard, and he's a very good boy!!

Enjoy your day

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Hmmm, let's see. You just joined DP. Four entire posts including two in this thread.

You have a complaint about almost everything in the OP, and apparently have a strong opinion about me as well, yet you take the time to answer everything and get some jabs and barbs in at the same time.

Maybe you're new to DP, and maybe you're not, but it is rather apparent that perhaps the one with the agenda here is you.