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[W:193]Abortion is homicide.

Wayne Jr said:
You called them miscarriages, not abortions. Somehow YOU know that they were not premeditated and so you called them miscarriages instead of abortions.
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Premeditated miscarriages? What on earth are you talking about?
 
Wayne Jr said:
It's not legally homicide, sure, but it is actually homicide. And I support it. Up to viability, it's the woman's right to abort the pregnancy. If an autopsy were performed on the unborn, the cause of death would be homicide. So what?
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Homicide is a legal definition.

It's illegal killing.

Abortion is legal killing, assuming you believe the removed zygote/embryo/fetus counts as alive.


So no, it's not homicide.
 
The Mark said:
Homicide is a legal definition.

It's illegal killing.

Abortion is legal killing, assuming you believe the removed zygote/embryo/fetus counts as alive.


So no, it's not homicide.
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Homicide is killing a human being. It can be legal or illegal. Murder is the illegal killing of a human being.

All murder is homicide, but not all homicide is murder.
 
Scrabaholic said:
Homicide is killing a human being. It can be legal or illegal. Murder is the illegal killing of a human being.

All murder is homicide, but not all homicide is murder.
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Actually, no.

Homicide is the unlawful killing of one person by another, and is in some ways synonymous with the murder.
However, murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of one person by another.

Neither applies to abortion.
 
Removable Mind said:
That’s a odd comment. Do you have any statistics that show how many miscarriages are premeditated?
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I sure don't, because it doesn't matter in the context of abortion law.

Removable Mind said:
Maybe I’m missing you point. Are you pro-choice, pro-life, or “other”?
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I'm pro-choice. And that factoid doesn't matter to the point I was making, either.

In order to know what to call it, you have to first know if it was spontaneous or deliberate (ie "premeditated"). A miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion. An abortion is a deliberate miscarriage. That's what the words mean, check the definitions. Mr.Wonka had called them "miscarriages" which he could only do if he first knew they were spontanious and not deliborate. By calling them "miscarriages" he is saying he somehow already knows that they weren't planned, and since he somehow already knows they weren't planned, there's no need for the investigation he calls for; he already knows the answer.

Question is, how does Mr.Wonka know the terminated pregnancies were miscarriages and not abortions. What lengths is MrWonka going to in violating privacy rights by researching all those records to then know they were spontaneous to then know to call them miscarriages?

Of course, the answer is: Mr.Wonka is doing no such thing, he just doesn't know how to logic and talks in circles.

I'm trying to show him that he's talking in circles.

You're missing the point because you aren't the one talking in circles. You're looking for an objective argument but what I am writing is a subjective exposition. There is no point for YOU to get. You're fine.
 
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Taxman said:
Abortion is like killing a fly not a human being. And if what you post was true males masturbating are committing homicide every time they ejaculate.
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I'm pro-choice and I'm calling your argument nonsense. The ZEF is an organism, sperm is not.

The ZEF is an organism and it is perfectly ethical to kill it at any time before viability at the mother's sole discretion.

The ZEF is "a human", "a developing human", "a human offspring", etc, and it is perfectly ethical to kill it at any time before viability at the mother's sole discretion.

You don't need to deny science to support abortion rights.
 
zyzygy said:
Premeditated miscarriages? What on earth are you talking about?
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Abortion is a deliberate miscarriage. A miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion. That's literally what the words mean.
 
Wayne Jr said:
Abortion is a deliberate miscarriage. A miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion. That's literally what the words mean.
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Wayne, I have to give it to you. You throw out a good story, but you aren’t correct in calling a medical abortion a spontaneous miscarriage. And offsprings aren’t a developing stage of a human life (AKA yet to be born). An offspring is either a stage of a developing fetus, which exist outside the womb (assisted or not by medical technology) and survives for an undetermined time. Or am offspring is fully developed infant that lives until its death, however last long that might be, and the death is natural or not.
 
Removable Mind said:
Wayne, I have to give it to you. You throw out a good story, but you aren’t correct in calling a medical abortion a spontaneous miscarriage. And offsprings aren’t a developing stage of a human life (AKA yet to be born). An offspring is either a stage of a developing fetus, which exist outside the womb (assisted or not by medical technology) and survives for an undetermined time. Or am offspring is fully developed infant that lives until its death, however last long that might be, and the death is natural or not.
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1. I have never called a medical abortion a spontaneous miscarriage. I have said the exact opposit twice in this thread. I will say it again for a 3rd time: If it's an abortion, it's not a miscarriage, because it was deliborate. If it's a miscarriage, it's not an abortion, because it was spontanious.

2. I did not claim offspring is a stage of development. 'Offspring' is what the ZEF is. The statement regards the nature of the object, not the object's level of development. The ZEF is also an organism and organism is not a stage of development. The ZEF is also human and human is not a stage of divelopment.

The only thing I've said regarding stages of development was a reference to Roe v Wade's 'viability' boundary which is the law of the land today.
 
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Scrabaholic said:
Homicide is killing a human being. It can be legal or illegal. Murder is the illegal killing of a human being.

All murder is homicide, but not all homicide is murder.
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It's not quite so cut and dry. Abortion is a very contentious issue. Some don't believe that life starts at conception. This is contentious. Some believe that a woman should have this choice, if she was raped. She didn't ask for this predicament. Contentious. Some believe that, if the mother's life is in danger, that she should be able to make this choice. Contentious. Some say that a woman's freedom to choose is a right. Contentious.

I may not believe in every aspect of this contentious issue, on either side. But it's not as simple as you make it out to be.
 
Media_Truth said:
It's not quite so cut and dry. Abortion is a very contentious issue. Some don't believe that life starts at conception. This is contentious. Some believe that a woman should have this choice, if she was raped. She didn't ask for this predicament. Contentious. Some believe that, if the mother's life is in danger, that she should be able to make this choice. Contentious. Some say that a woman's freedom to choose is a right. Contentious.

I may not believe in every aspect of this contentious issue, on either side. But it's not as simple as you make it out to be.
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The problem is that "those on the other side" of this contentious issue is far less than a majority.

2/3rds of the American public believe consistently for years that abortion with restrictions should be legal, that abortion in cases of Life of mother, in cases of rape and incest should also be legal.

Only 11% of the American public believe abortions should become unlawful in all occasions...even in cases of life of mother, rape and incest.
 
1751Texan said:
The problem is that "those on the other side" of this contentious issue is far less than a majority.

2/3rds of the American public believe consistently for years that abortion with restrictions should be legal, that abortion in cases of Life of mother, in cases of rape and incest should also be legal.

Only 11% of the American public believe abortions should become unlawful in all occasions...even in cases of life of mother, rape and incest.
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Fortunately the Supreme Court has ruled on the issue and the matter is settled. Abortion is legal. Get over it.
 
Where's Waldo? err Dalto?
 
Wayne Jr said:
1. I have never called a medical abortion a spontaneous miscarriage. I have said the exact opposit twice in this thread. I will say it again for a 3rd time: If it's an abortion, it's not a miscarriage, because it was deliborate. If it's a miscarriage, it's not an abortion, because it was spontanious.

2. I did not claim offspring is a stage of development. 'Offspring' is what the ZEF is. The statement regards the nature of the object, not the object's level of development. The ZEF is also an organism and organism is not a stage of development. The ZEF is also human and human is not a stage of divelopment.

The only thing I've said regarding stages of development was a reference to Roe v Wade's 'viability' boundary which is the law of the land today.
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Offspring is a born enitity.

One that has sprung off and is no longer inside and attached to its host/bio-mother.

In biology, offspring are the young born of living organisms, produced either by a single organism or, in the case of sexual reproduction, two organisms.
 
Wayne Jr said:
1. I have never called a medical abortion a spontaneous miscarriage. I have said the exact opposit twice in this thread. I will say it again for a 3rd time: If it's an abortion, it's not a miscarriage, because it was deliborate. If it's a miscarriage, it's not an abortion, because it was spontanious.

2. I did not claim offspring is a stage of development. 'Offspring' is what the ZEF is. The statement regards the nature of the object, not the object's level of development. The ZEF is also an organism and organism is not a stage of development. The ZEF is also human and human is not a stage of divelopment.

The only thing I've said regarding stages of development was a reference to Roe v Wade's 'viability' boundary which is the law of the land today.
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So what’s all of the hoop-tee-la about? What’s your personal interest in “pre-meditated miscarriage”? In the grander scheme of things - does it matter - on a societal scale?

And Roe vs Wade decision on what “approximately constitutes viability” was redefined in Planned Parenthood vs Casey 1992. It didn’t change much (at least as of yet) because science hasn’t figured out how to advance lung development or advance neutral/brain growth to the point that a fetus can survive outside the womb - even when medically assisted.
 
The Mark said:
Actually, no.

Homicide is the unlawful killing of one person by another, and is in some ways synonymous with the murder.
However, murder is the unlawful premeditated killing of one person by another.

Neither applies to abortion.
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You deny that murder is illegal killing of a human being?
 
Media_Truth said:
It's not quite so cut and dry. Abortion is a very contentious issue. Some don't believe that life starts at conception. This is contentious. Some believe that a woman should have this choice, if she was raped. She didn't ask for this predicament. Contentious. Some believe that, if the mother's life is in danger, that she should be able to make this choice. Contentious. Some say that a woman's freedom to choose is a right. Contentious.

I may not believe in every aspect of this contentious issue, on either side. But it's not as simple as you make it out to be.
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My post was not about abortion. I didn't even mention abortion in it. So, your post is irrelevant as a response to mine.
 
minnie616 said:
Offspring is a born enitity.

One that has sprung off and is no longer inside and attached to its host/bio-mother.

In biology, offspring are the young born of living organisms, produced either by a single organism or, in the case of sexual reproduction, two organisms.
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By that logic, only mammals have offspring because only mammals give birth. This is what happens when you use Wiki to get your information, you make dysfunctional arguments.

Try an authoritative definition instead:

offspring noun
off·spring | \ ˈȯf-ˌspriŋ \
plural offspring also offsprings
Definition of Offspring
1a : the product of the reproductive processes of an animal or plant: YOUNG, PROGENY
The disease can be transmitted from parent to offspring.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/offspring

The ZEF is undeniably the product of the reproductive process.

Anyway, it can be one's "offspring" and it's still perfectly ethical to terminate it before viability at the mother's sole discretion. We don't need to deny science to support abortion rights.
 
Removable Mind said:
So what’s all of the hoop-tee-la about? What’s your personal interest in “pre-meditated miscarriage”? In the grander scheme of things - does it matter - on a societal scale?

And Roe vs Wade decision on what “approximately constitutes viability” was redefined in Planned Parenthood vs Casey 1992. It didn’t change much (at least as of yet) because science hasn’t figured out how to advance lung development or advance neutral/brain growth to the point that a fetus can survive outside the womb - even when medically assisted.
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My posts were to MrWonka, not you. Feel free to reply but don't expect it to make sense, it wasn't for you.
 
Wayne Jr said:
My posts were to MrWonka, not you. Feel free to reply but don't expect it to make sense, it wasn't for you.
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My expectations rarely include posts making sense. Forgive me, I thought this was a discussion Forum open to anyone who wants to join in on conversation.
 
Dalto said:
homicide is the premeditated killing of one human being by another.
abortion is the premeditated killing of one human being by another.
abortion is homicide.
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You screwed up pretty much. If you removed the word ''being'' from your chain here and simply posted the science showing the unborn are humans (which they are,) your post would've been much more better.
 
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