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[W:249]The Most Important Question About Abortion

Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
I want you to pick anyone from 2,000 years ago and show me the scientific PROOF they existed?

And if you can't, then it's disingenuous to ask for proof for Jesus.

By the way, the man who wrote the rules of evidence in a court of law used to be a skeptic. He was then challenged to look at the evidence for Jesus, and he became a firm believer.

Evidence can hang people. Pay close attention to it and then you won't be such a skeptic.
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Hey...you know, if Jesus was not a real person, I also dont care. If you want to dispute that he was, I will totally give you that one.

Again, all *I* need is my faith.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
Just because there was a perceived need in the first place doesn't mean it was originally a "right". Healthcare isn't a right either. That's it.
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Women have Constitutional rights that are clearly enumerated....if abortion were made illegal, the laws to enforce it would violate many of women's Constitutional rights. Due process, privacy (including security of the person), liberty, even our right to life. And it clearly violates a person's bodily sovereignty.
 
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Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Bassman said:
It does not mean to to so utilizing the force of government.
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So then that applies to the govt also interfering in women's bodily sovereignty, right?

It would be, according to you, completely wrong for the govt to use force (of law or otherwise) to demand that women remain pregnant against their will.

Thank you! I think you're done here :)
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
Personal responsibility, Cordelier. That is missing from today's liberals always wanting more and more handouts.
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Abortion can be a very responsible act. And there's no doubt at all that it reduces govt 'handouts' in the form of welfare and other public assistance. So you arent making much sense here.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid you cant afford and expecting tax payers to take up that burden with public assistance.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid you arent emotionally prepared to have and may abuse or neglect.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid if you know you wont stop drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc that will damage the unborn.

--There's nothing responsible about remaining pregnant and dropping out of high school or college or missing work and not fulfilling your potential in society.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid and giving it up for adoption when there are already over 100,000 kids in America waiting to be adopted. It means one less kid waiting will find a home.​
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Lursa said:
Abortion can be a very responsible act. And there's no doubt at all that it reduces govt 'handouts' in the form of welfare and other public assistance. So you arent making much sense here.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid you cant afford and expecting tax payers to take up that burden with public assistance.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid you arent emotionally prepared to have and may abuse or neglect.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid if you know you wont stop drinking, smoking, doing drugs, etc that will damage the unborn.

--There's nothing responsible about remaining pregnant and dropping out of high school or college or missing work and not fulfilling your potential in society.

--There's nothing responsible about having a kid and giving it up for adoption when there are already over 100,000 kids in America waiting to be adopted. It means one less kid waiting will find a home.​
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Being responsible is saying "No" in the bedroom, before a baby is conceived and terminated. That's being responsible.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
Being responsible is saying "No" in the bedroom, before a baby is conceived and terminated. That's being responsible.
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Or having an abortion
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
Being responsible is saying "No" in the bedroom, before a baby is conceived and terminated. That's being responsible.
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There is no reason for women not to enjoy sex, it's a wonderful thing that bonds people, creates intimacy, feels great.

THere are many methods of birth control but none (except surgical) are 100% effective. Women have every right to enjoy sex and then deal with unfortunate and accidental consequences as they choose.

Just because *you* have some personal moral prejudice against enjoying sex before marriage doesnt mean everyone has to comply with it. Lord, I can only imagine the US turning into Iran under your watch.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Cordelier said:
That's not really helpful where it comes to rape or sexual abuse, is it?
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What is that, about 1% of all pregnancies? Try dealing with the 99%, Cordelier.

By the way, Eartha Kitt and Ethyl Waters were among many famous individuals who were the result of rape.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
Just because there was a perceived need in the first place doesn't mean it was originally a "right". Healthcare isn't a right either. That's it.
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That of course is nonsensical, abortion is the personal choice about medical decisions regarding your own person and your own uterus, healthcare is about how people can afford medical attention. To compare a financial issue with a highly personal issue is absolute nonsense.

Your personal body integrity is a civil rights issue.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Bassman said:
It does not mean to to so utilizing the force of government.
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Then why do anti-choice supporters have no issue at all utilizing the force of government to deny people the right to decide about their own medical decisions?

Organizing affordable healthcare is a worthwhile cause for having the governments support because it aids/helps people, whereas what the anti-choice people's desire to have the government interfere in women's private parts hurts people and hurts the right of women.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Bassman said:
Because government run healthcare, first of all, is disastrous on all fronts, all new innovations and R&D are gone, and we are FORCED to fork over more than 85% of total taxes to fund such a monstrosity. No, no. healthcare is NOT a right, but an INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY, something the lunatic Left will never get.
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Yeah, that is totally bogus of course, to organize affordable healthcare you do not need to have government run healthcare. You just make sure people have insurance.

And there is no reason to not organize an insurance system for affordable healthcare, access to affordable healthcare should be a right.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
What is that, about 1% of all pregnancies? Try dealing with the 99%, Cordelier.

By the way, Eartha Kitt and Ethyl Waters were among many famous individuals who were the result of rape.
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I don't know... I've never done a survey. Have you?
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Peter King said:
That of course is nonsensical, abortion is the personal choice about medical decisions regarding your own person and your own uterus, healthcare is about how people can afford medical attention. To compare a financial issue with a highly personal issue is absolute nonsense.

Your personal body integrity is a civil rights issue.
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Once again, abortion is not an enumerated RIGHT in the Constitution. If you think it is identify the section and article.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
Being responsible is saying "No" in the bedroom, before a baby is conceived and terminated. That's being responsible.
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Btw, since you didnt refute any of the things I listed about abortion being a responsible option "once there is a pregnancy", I'll just go with you agreed. Or acknowledge that it's true at least.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
Once again, abortion is not an enumerated RIGHT in the Constitution. If you think it is identify the section and article.
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I'll refer you to Justice Goldberg's concurrence in Griswold v. Connecticut (381 US 479). The right to privacy is an unenumerated 9th Amendment constitutional right.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
Once again, abortion is not an enumerated RIGHT in the Constitution. If you think it is identify the section and article.
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Once again, abortion doesnt have to be an enumerated right in the Constitution to protect women on this issue:

Lursa said:
Women have Constitutional rights that are clearly enumerated....if abortion were made illegal, the laws to enforce it would violate many of women's Constitutional rights. Due process, privacy (including security of the person), liberty, even our right to life. And it clearly violates a person's bodily sovereignty.
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And then there's also the 9th Amendment, which says that anything NOT enumerated in the Constitution IS a right unless ruled otherwise.
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/amendments/amendment-ix
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You dont seem to understand the Constitution any better than you understand what's needed to prove that God exists.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Cordelier said:
Even if that were the case... would you outlaw those abortions as well?
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Most pro-life (not all) supporters' acceptance comes down to this:

Interestingly enough...I've discovered a pretty clear dividing line for "acceptable" for most pro-life people. It's viewed the same very very frequently.

If it's the woman's 'fault' she got pregnant (she enjoyed sex, her birth control failed, etc.) then she should not be allowed to have an abortion.

If it wasnt her fault (rape, severe medical issues, incest as a minor) then she should be allowed to have an abortion.

So what we can see here is that:

--obviously most pro-life people do not view the unborn as equal... If the unborn was truly equal, you could not terminate it's life in cases of rape or incest or even the mother's life to some extent. (THere are a few pro-life people that do believe you cannot terminate the unborn in these circumstances and at least they are consistent.)

-- most pro-life people care more about judging and punishing a woman than they care for that 'innocent life'. (yeah, considering it punishment because the unborn is frequently referred to as a 'consequence')

So IMO the dividing line re: abortion for pro-life supporters has nothing to do with the unborn, it's all about the woman and how they judge her culpability in the pregnancy.​
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Lursa said:
Most pro-life (not all) supporters' acceptance comes down to this:

Interestingly enough...I've discovered a pretty clear dividing line for "acceptable" for most pro-life people. It's viewed the same very very frequently.

If it's the woman's 'fault' she got pregnant (she enjoyed sex, her birth control failed, etc.) then she should not be allowed to have an abortion.

If it wasnt her fault (rape, severe medical issues, incest as a minor) then she should be allowed to have an abortion.

So what we can see here is that:

--obviously most pro-life people do not view the unborn as equal... If the unborn was truly equal, you could not terminate it's life in cases of rape or incest or even the mother's life to some extent. (THere are a few pro-life people that do believe you cannot terminate the unborn in these circumstances and at least they are consistent.)

-- most pro-life people care more about judging and punishing a woman than they care for that 'innocent life'. (yeah, considering it punishment because the unborn is frequently referred to as a 'consequence')

So IMO the dividing line re: abortion for pro-life supporters has nothing to do with the unborn, it's all about the woman and how they judge her culpability in the pregnancy.​
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You hit the nail squarely on the head, Lursa... that's exactly where I was going with my line of questioning. And I'll point out that even if they were consistent and outlawed abortions in rape and incest cases, they almost invariably would deny the child produced in such cases - being at greater risk for adverse conditions - access to public healthcare.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Cordelier said:
You hit the nail squarely on the head, Lursa... that's exactly where I was going with my line of questioning. And I'll point out that even if they were consistent and outlawed abortions in rape and incest cases, they almost invariably would deny the child produced in such cases - being at greater risk for adverse conditions - access to public healthcare.
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Thanks. This is not my first rodeo ;)
 
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