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[W:249]The Most Important Question About Abortion

Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
It is clear in scripture that in some way, God creates life in a mother’s womb, whether that is the human spirit or something else.

Psalm 139:13 – ‘For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.’

Of course, the question for the pro-abortion crowd, is: What divine insight does the pro-abortion crowd think they have to where they can destroy in a mother’s womb that which God is somehow instrumental in creating?
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I respect the fact that you perceive abortion to be a religious/moral issue. I share that view myself. But where I think we disagree is on the question of whether or not it is acceptable to force your religion/morality on others. The plain and simple fact of the matter is that you cannot - not if you wish this to remain a free country. In a free country, everyone has the right to live by their own moral code. Everyone has a right to their own religious and spiritual beliefs - including whether or not they choose to hold such beliefs at all.

Unless your intention is to make America into some Christian version of Iran, then the dictates of your own morality and creed are your own, are they not?
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Cordelier said:
I respect the fact that you perceive abortion to be a religious/moral issue. I share that view myself. But where I think we disagree is on the question of whether or not it is acceptable to force your religion/morality on others. The plain and simple fact of the matter is that you cannot - not if you wish this to remain a free country. In a free country, everyone has the right to live by their own moral code. Everyone has a right to their own religious and spiritual beliefs - including whether or not they choose to hold such beliefs at all.

Unless your intention is to make America into some Christian version of Iran, then the dictates of your own morality and creed are your own, are they not?
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Well there's a breath of fresh air!

And truth.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Lursa said:
Well there's a breath of fresh air!

And truth.
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Thanks Lursa... it just drives me nuts how so many people demand that their religious views be taken seriously... and yet they refuse to to acknowledge the differing views of others. It's just pure hypocrisy. If you don't agree with abortion, then don't get one. Simple. But where does anyone get off telling any woman what they can or can't do with their own body? And then these same people will turn around and castigate Iran for treating women like second-class citizens.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Cordelier said:
Unless your intention is to make America into some Christian version of Iran, then the dictates of your own morality and creed are your own, are they not?
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This is precisely what evangelicals want, there's no point in sugar coating it anymore with rhetorical questions. They may not come out and say it blatantly (though some do), but their end game is a theocratically-informed government. We know this because of how they employ populism and cronyism to get sympathizers into positions of authority who can change laws.

Some evangelicals have told me to my face that their people are working to get more of their peers on the US Supreme Court so that they can shoot down Roe v Wade. These aren't crazy hillbillies, they are organized religious fundamentalists.

These people have no respect for the freedoms that a Democratic Republic like ours are supposed to be about. They don't value secular tradition or secular argumentation at all.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Northern Light said:
This is precisely what evangelicals want, there's no point in sugar coating it anymore with rhetorical questions. They may not come out and say it blatantly (though some do), but their end game is a theocratically-informed government. We know this because of how they employ populism and cronyism to get sympathizers into positions of authority who can change laws.

Some evangelicals have told me to my face that their people are working to get more of their peers on the US Supreme Court so that they can shoot down Roe v Wade. These aren't crazy hillbillies, they are organized religious fundamentalists.

These people have no respect for the freedoms that a Democratic Republic like ours are supposed to be about. They don't value secular tradition or secular argumentation at all.
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Maybe they're just a symptom of a larger societal trend?

We seem to be atomizing more and more as a society.... just last week, I read a local news story about the local Elk's Club disbanding because all of the members were getting on in years. Now, I've never been a member of the Elks... but back in my Grandfather's day, and even in my old man's, they were pretty popular. So where along the way did they stop attracting new blood? I imagine the same as any other organization.... if you think about the American Legion, the image you typically get in your head is World War II and Korea vets... maybe some guys from Vietnam. I left the Army in the early 90's... if someone had suggested that I go and join the Legion then, I would have thought they had rocks in their head. I can only imagine how it must be for the kids coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan. It just seems more and more every year we seem to do less and less as a community anymore... anywhere. We're all atomizing and finding our own little bubbles.

So in that kind of a world, I can understand the appeal of religious fundamentalism. I can see how it can give people a sense of belonging and community. It certainly cuts down on the ambiguity. It's definitely a black-and-white vision of the world. Not too many shades of gray in the world of evangelism. Who knows? Maybe that's the road we're all on... maybe if we keep spinning apart like this, we all end up as fundamentalists of one kind or another. If we just watch the news channels we agree with, or read the websites that represent our own point of view. Only associate with similarly-minded people. Maybe we all end up in our own fundamentalist bubbles where everything is comfy and cozy and built just for us and the people like us. I sure hope not.... because that seems like a pretty boring world to me.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

This is the conundrum of the pro life movement: a- they don't seem to say who goes to jail if abortion is banned again; b- the right does not support sex education or public funding of birth control (see idiot Limbaugh's calling an advocate a slut) which would limit abortions. The Clintons had it right, "safe, legal and rare." But the right persists in thinking that they can persuade teens not to have sex. Hasn't worked since Romeo and Juliet.
 
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Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

joko104 said:
What kind of God is it that is so powerless he is weaker than humans being unable to stop an abortion?
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Just read the Book of Revelation to find out what God does to the murderers, idolators, unbelievers, etc. They'll get a new revelation on the power of God.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Cordelier said:
I respect the fact that you perceive abortion to be a religious/moral issue. I share that view myself. But where I think we disagree is on the question of whether or not it is acceptable to force your religion/morality on others.
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That's a tired old canard. If Christians were going to force anything on you they'd beat down your door, tie you up, and force feed dogma on you until you caved.

But what we are finding is the constant indoctrination of our children in school and elsewhere forced to sit in classrooms and listen to left-wing drivel, including how wonderful abortion and immoral lifestyles are.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
Just read the Book of Revelation to find out what God does to the murderers, idolators, unbelievers, etc. They'll get a new revelation on the power of God.
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Sounds like Apostle Paul went downstairs since he was a murderer.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logician Man said:
Sounds like Apostle Paul went downstairs since he was a murderer.
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So was Moses, but God's grace is greater when people repent. So get a better argument.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
That's a tired old canard. If Christians were going to force anything on you they'd beat down your door, tie you up, and force feed dogma on you until you caved.

But what we are finding is the constant indoctrination of our children in school and elsewhere forced to sit in classrooms and listen to left-wing drivel, including how wonderful abortion and immoral lifestyles are.
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Children have the right to attend private schools or be home schooled if their guardians don't like the public,secular curriculum.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
So was Moses, but God's grace is greater when people repent. So get a better argument.
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Not necessary. no one has proven any gods exist,including you. Get better evidence.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
That's a tired old canard. If Christians were going to force anything on you they'd beat down your door, tie you up, and force feed dogma on you until you caved.

But what we are finding is the constant indoctrination of our children in school and elsewhere forced to sit in classrooms and listen to left-wing drivel, including how wonderful abortion and immoral lifestyles are.
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I don't know about that... I went to a Catholic school - they made us watch "The Silent Scream". I don't think right-wing propaganda is any more helpful than left-wing propaganda. Personally, I'd like to see kids exposed to a wide variety of ideas and let them make up their own minds.

What do you consider to be an "immoral lifestyle"?
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
Just read the Book of Revelation to find out what God does to the murderers, idolators, unbelievers, etc. They'll get a new revelation on the power of God.
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Why worry about a fictional being? You havent provided any evidence of his existence. You gave us a silly piece that proved no such thing...do YOU believe the article you posted? :doh :lamo

Now, where's your evidence?
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logician Man said:
Children have the right to attend private schools or be home schooled if their guardians don't like the public,secular curriculum.
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And many do. Including Democrat leaders who promote the public school system but send their kids to private schools.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Lursa said:
That's no evidence. Do you not know what "evidence" is???
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It's something you've yet to come up with to support your claim that God is a "mythical god".

Do you know what evidence is? I recommend you stop making wild claims about God being mythical until you can come up with some serious evidence to back you up.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Cordelier said:
I don't know about that... I went to a Catholic school - they made us watch "The Silent Scream". I don't think right-wing propaganda is any more helpful than left-wing propaganda. Personally, I'd like to see kids exposed to a wide variety of ideas and let them make up their own minds.

What do you consider to be an "immoral lifestyle"?
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Read the Bible and find out.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
It's something you've yet to come up with to support your claim that God is a "mythical god".

Do you know what evidence is? I recommend you stop making wild claims about God being mythical until you can come up with some serious evidence to back you up.
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By the same token you should stop acting like you speak for a god you've never proven exists.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Lursa said:
Why worry about a fictional being?
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There you go again. Where's your evidence God is fictional. It appears you have NOTHING.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logician Man said:
By the same token you should stop acting like you speak for a god you've never proven exists.
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As if you've ever done enough homework to ever find out.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Cordelier said:
Maybe they're just a symptom of a larger societal trend?

We seem to be atomizing more and more as a society.... just last week, I read a local news story about the local Elk's Club disbanding because all of the members were getting on in years. Now, I've never been a member of the Elks... but back in my Grandfather's day, and even in my old man's, they were pretty popular. So where along the way did they stop attracting new blood? I imagine the same as any other organization.... if you think about the American Legion, the image you typically get in your head is World War II and Korea vets... maybe some guys from Vietnam. I left the Army in the early 90's... if someone had suggested that I go and join the Legion then, I would have thought they had rocks in their head. I can only imagine how it must be for the kids coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan. It just seems more and more every year we seem to do less and less as a community anymore... anywhere. We're all atomizing and finding our own little bubbles.

So in that kind of a world, I can understand the appeal of religious fundamentalism. I can see how it can give people a sense of belonging and community. It certainly cuts down on the ambiguity. It's definitely a black-and-white vision of the world. Not too many shades of gray in the world of evangelism. Who knows? Maybe that's the road we're all on... maybe if we keep spinning apart like this, we all end up as fundamentalists of one kind or another. If we just watch the news channels we agree with, or read the websites that represent our own point of view. Only associate with similarly-minded people. Maybe we all end up in our own fundamentalist bubbles where everything is comfy and cozy and built just for us and the people like us. I sure hope not.... because that seems like a pretty boring world to me.
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I like the way you think :)

Actually though, evangelicals tend to expand through families. In other words they get the children. They also tend to get converts through the socioeconomically vulnerable, like addicts/alcoholics, people who are down and out. They offer community, love and support which comes attached to the religious messages. When one is really struggling long-term and in a dire negative head space, the conflation of loving support with religion may become automatic. One may assume that because these people are so loving that their religion may also be worth considering.

I say this as an ex-Catholic who grew up in the Church life. I get it, I really do. I'm not even claiming that Jesus, as a force, is unreal or irrelevant. I'm just talking about this as a political phenomenon. The evangelicals are a tour de force and not in a good way. It's a lot of traditionalism and entitlement wrapped up into one, which forms a nice righteous package.

Society becoming atomized is an interesting way of looking at it, and yes I can see the problems there. My main beef is that our polity has been gamed. Our secular system which is supposed to operate on secular evidence and gathering of information from constituents has now been gamed. Everyone is trying to push through their political message through populism rather than rational appeal: evangelicals, leftists, rightist, etc. Look at the President we have now. He played the populist game and won, no real qualifications necessary. Too many people are trying to go above it or underneath it rather than the fair and democratic way which is through it.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
It's something you've yet to come up with to support your claim that God is a "mythical god".

Do you know what evidence is? I recommend you stop making wild claims about God being mythical until you can come up with some serious evidence to back you up.
Click to expand...

So you cant prove God exists?

No kidding. So much for your fiction that you would impose on Americans.
 
Re: Prager is reliably Conservative

Logicman said:
As if you've ever done enough homework to ever find out.
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I've done more than you,and I follow Christ's teachings better than you.
 
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