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Question for women who have children, grown or not

Wan said:
Did you just imply that the unborn is not a live human?
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Not at all. It is absolutely a live human that, just like every other live human, a woman has a 100% absolute right to remove from her own uterus.

Wan said:
Also, I never showed any pictures. What are you talking about?
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I am talking about the tendency of pro-life propaganda-- the general "you"-- to portray the "victims" of abortion as fully-formed near-infants in order to make a more effective appeal to emotion against womens' rights. The reason it's relevant to your posts is that this same tendency is reflected in your choice of terminology; you use the term "murder", in its moral sense, when arguing with people who don't consider it murder, and then balk when they refer to the legal definition, under which abortion does not qualify.

EDIT: My tendency is to assume that anything people do that's counterproductive, they are doing intentionally out of malice. It might not be the case in your case, but I hope you recognize that these tactics are obfuscatory; they shroud the argument in confusion and darkness rather than illuminating either side.
 
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Bucky said:
Interesting,

Can you provide the quote or source of the conversation?

I have had a few debates, and many people claim the fetus inside the woman is not human.
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many people? who... in all my years posting here ive only seen one poster do that ever and he was a sock and lasted about 2-4 weeks

so by all means provided this list or proof that many people claim a fetus is not human
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
Not at all. It is absolutely a live human that, just like every other live human, a woman has a 100% absolute right to remove from her own uterus.



I am talking about the tendency of pro-life propaganda-- the general "you"-- to portray the "victims" of abortion as fully-formed near-infants in order to make a more effective appeal to emotion against womens' rights. The reason it's relevant to your posts is that this same tendency is reflected in your choice of terminology; you use the term "murder", in its moral sense, when arguing with people who don't consider it murder, and then balk when they refer to the legal definition, under which abortion does not qualify.

EDIT: My tendency is to assume that anything people do that's counterproductive, they are doing intentionally out of malice. It might not be the case in your case, but I hope you recognize that these tactics are obfuscatory; they shroud the argument in confusion and darkness rather than illuminating either side.
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There are no consequences for lying on the Internet and many people just doggedly refuse to admit they're wrong (as if it matters on the Internet!) and move on and thus intelligent discussion isnt possible for them after that point. It's all defense and obfuscation.

Common in this sub-forum is getting an acknowledgement that the born and unborn cannot be treated equally under the law. When you work towards a direct answer there (because they bob and weave like crazy) they finally just quit the discussion.

I dont expect agreement...just adult discussion.
 
Bucky said:
Interesting,

Can you provide the quote or source of the conversation?

I have had a few debates, and many people claim the fetus inside the woman is not human.
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Who is claiming that the fetus is not human. Since you say "many people" you should be able to find a few.


Of course the fetus gestating inside a woman's body is human. What do you think they believe it is...canine? Reptilian?


The people I see bringing this up are never prochoice and always pro-life....trying to smear the other side. I wish the silly accusations would stop,


But I will wait for your quotes.


Is it human? yes

Is it a person? No
 
PragmaticOne said:
If you have children, grown or otherwise, do you maintain that you carried your children in your womb? It does not matter whether you are a pro-choice woman or a pro-life woman. Did you carry your children in your womb?

REASON FOR THIS QUESTION: On another thread, a poster stated that "Women do not gestate children." After I posted the definition of gestate to refute his stand, he posted, "Still no child in the womb." Hence, my question, "Did you carry your children in your womb?"
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My wife carried 9 children in her womb which were born alive nine months after life began. She carried one more which did not make it to term.
 
I gave birth to 4 children.
I had two miscarriages between my second and third child.

One was an early miscarriage ...about 5 weeks. The other pregnancy was about 20 weeks when I miscarried.

I know the difference between a pregnancy and a child.
 
minnie616 said:
What about all the women who adopted their children?

Those children were raised and cared for and loved by those women.
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I agree with your statement. And I will add that the women who have given birth to those children carried their child in their womb. After having borne the child for nine months, they gave it up for adoption.
 
PragmaticOne said:
I agree with your statement. And I will add that the women who have given birth to those children carried their child in their womb. After having borne the child for nine months, they gave it up for adoption.
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You seem not to understand the difference between a pregnancy and a child.

Please read my above post.

A pregnancy is a maybe.

15 to 20 percent of known pregnancies ( when the woman knows she is pregnant) miscarry.

There is a difference between a child and a pregnancy.
 
Can a fetus live outside the womb?
Can a child live inside the womb?
 
PragmaticOne said:
If you have children, grown or otherwise, do you maintain that you carried your children in your womb? It does not matter whether you are a pro-choice woman or a pro-life woman. Did you carry your children in your womb?

REASON FOR THIS QUESTION: On another thread, a poster stated that "Women do not gestate children." After I posted the definition of gestate to refute his stand, he posted, "Still no child in the womb." Hence, my question, "Did you carry your children in your womb?"
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Yes...
 
Skeptic Bob said:
The most ridiculous abortion debates are ones rooted solely in semantics.
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The most ridiculous ones are where men end up being indentured servants to women for 18 years because she has a child that she can not support.
 
year2late said:
Who is claiming that the fetus is not human. Since you say "many people" you should be able to find a few.


Of course the fetus gestating inside a woman's body is human. What do you think they believe it is...canine? Reptilian?


The people I see bringing this up are never prochoice and always pro-life....trying to smear the other side. I wish the silly accusations would stop,


But I will wait for your quotes.


Is it human? yes

Is it a person? No
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I will help Bucky out. A human fetus is not human... it is bovine and any body that argues differently needs to take Biology again.
 
Bodhisattva said:
I will help Bucky out. A human fetus is not human... it is bovine and any body that argues differently needs to take Biology again.
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Well there is the whole ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny thing.
 
Bodhisattva said:
The most ridiculous ones are where men end up being indentured servants to women for 18 years because she has a child that she can not support.
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That he decided to risk providing the sperm for.

Why would he do that, take that risk...with such a terrible potential penalty?

Is he not responsible for rolling the dice too?
 
Wan said:
So you are saying that because the unborn does not have the looks of a child, it's OK to kill it?
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The second picture of the 12 week old fetus DOES look like a child! (baby, more accurately).
 
Lursa said:
Is he not responsible for rolling the dice too?
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No. Only the mother is held responsible for "rolling the dice". The father is held responsible for her choices made deliberately after that fact.

Glad I could help clear this up for you again. And again. And again.
 
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Korimyr the Rat said:
No. Only the mother is held responsible for "rolling the dice". The father is held responsible for her choices made deliberately after that fact.

Glad I could help clear this up for you again. And again. And again.
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She is held responsible. So since he knowingly contributed 50% to the creation of that kid, why isnt he 50% responsible?
 
Lursa said:
She is held responsible. So since he knowingly contributed 50% to the creation of that kid, why isnt he 50% responsible?
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By my count, there's one decision that the couple makes together, and two decisions that the mother has the sole legal authority over. How do you reckon that's fifty percent?
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
By my count, there's one decision that the couple makes together, and two decisions that the mother has the sole legal authority over. How do you reckon that's fifty percent?
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She has zero extra legal authority ove rtheir children.

She has complete autonomy over her medical decisions before there is a kid.

Again...men know this...right? So they are still rolling the dice. Is someone forcing them to have sex with that woman? Of course not. They choose to take that risk.

So men have a choice too.
 
Lursa said:
She has zero extra legal authority ove rtheir children.

She has complete autonomy over her medical decisions before there is a kid.
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I'd remind you, once again, that this is a ****ing lie... but you are too deeply invested in your hypocrisy to ever admit to it.

For the sake of anyone in the audience still trying to have an honest conversation, a couple of points:

1. Just because a pregnant woman has an absolute moral and legal right to remove an unwanted child from her uterus doesn't mean there isn't a child.
2. Even if there isn't, this is still a decision point that a woman has 100% unilateral authority over before either parent is responsible for the child.
3. After giving birth, all the mother has to do to unilaterally absolve herself of parental responsibility is claim she doesn't know who the father is. That is definitely a child.

And your argument for why men should not have the right to refuse paternity is still "he knew the risks when he had sex", which is a pretty typical argument from Mike Pence or Mike Huckabee, but is pretty ****ing disgusting coming from the mouth of a so-called feminist.
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
I'd remind you, once again, that this is a ****ing lie... but you are too deeply invested in your hypocrisy to ever admit to it.

For the sake of anyone in the audience still trying to have an honest conversation, a couple of points:

1. Just because a pregnant woman has an absolute moral and legal right to remove an unwanted child from her uterus doesn't mean there isn't a child.
2. Even if there isn't, this is still a decision point that a woman has 100% unilateral authority over before either parent is responsible for the child.
3. After giving birth, all the mother has to do to unilaterally absolve herself of parental responsibility is claim she doesn't know who the father is. That is definitely a child.

And your argument for why men should not have the right to refuse paternity is still "he knew the risks when he had sex", which is a pretty typical argument from Mike Pence or Mike Huckabee, but is pretty ****ing disgusting coming from the mouth of a so-called feminist.
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There is no child. And there never may be one. So you are factually wrong there.

Yes, I said that she has complete autonomy over that decision, did you miss where I wrote that? So you can just chill on the '****ing lies' BS.

And how does the mother unilaterally absolve herself of parental responsibility? Adoption? I believe that the law should be that the father should ALWAYS be given the option to adopt the child first and if so, then she would be responsible for child support. However with such a law, many women would probably abort instead. So...still no child support for the man...win-win.

And why is it wrong for a man to take responsibility for the decision he made to have sex? A woman has to.100%. A woman *cannot escape the consequences of a pregnancy.*

Also, no woman that gets pregnant can avoid paying the consequences, there is no escape. There are only 4 scenarios:

--she has a kid
--miscarriage
--abortion
--dying during pregnancy/childbirth

And she can die or suffer permanent health damage from the first 3 too.

However men escape consequences in all but one of those. If they are pissed they get stuck with that one...then since they know it before they have sex...either dont have sex or accept that your consequence is that you dont have control over the woman's choices.​
 
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PragmaticOne said:
If you have children, grown or otherwise, do you maintain that you carried your children in your womb? It does not matter whether you are a pro-choice woman or a pro-life woman. Did you carry your children in your womb?

REASON FOR THIS QUESTION: On another thread, a poster stated that "Women do not gestate children." After I posted the definition of gestate to refute his stand, he posted, "Still no child in the womb." Hence, my question, "Did you carry your children in your womb?"
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Yes I carried my only daughter in my womb. I nurtured her and loved her while she developed inside my body in order to bring her into this world.
 
Korimyr the Rat said:
I'd remind you, once again, that this is a ****ing lie... but you are too deeply invested in your hypocrisy to ever admit to it.

For the sake of anyone in the audience still trying to have an honest conversation, a couple of points:

1. Just because a pregnant woman has an absolute moral and legal right to remove an unwanted child from her uterus doesn't mean there isn't a child.
2. Even if there isn't, this is still a decision point that a woman has 100% unilateral authority over before either parent is responsible for the child.
3. After giving birth, all the mother has to do to unilaterally absolve herself of parental responsibility is claim she doesn't know who the father is. That is definitely a child.

And your argument for why men should not have the right to refuse paternity is still "he knew the risks when he had sex", which is a pretty typical argument from Mike Pence or Mike Huckabee, but is pretty ****ing disgusting coming from the mouth of a so-called feminist.
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A male does have the ability to stop a woman getting pregnant through use of condoms. It is his responsibility to ensure that a woman does not get pregnant just as much as it is a womans responsibility not to get pregnant. They have an equal share in that responsibility.
He knows what risk he is taking if he does nothing to ensure a woman getting pregnant

The fact that the mother has sole authority does not change anything. It is her right to decide an not the males right to influence or shed responsibility just because he does not like the decision.
 
soylentgreen said:
A male does have the ability to stop a woman getting pregnant through use of condoms. It is his responsibility to ensure that a woman does not get pregnant just as much as it is a womans responsibility not to get pregnant. They have an equal share in that responsibility.
He knows what risk he is taking if he does nothing to ensure a woman getting pregnant

The fact that the mother has sole authority does not change anything. It is her right to decide an not the males right to influence or shed responsibility just because he does not like the decision.
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IMO it comes down to that entrenched belief, that goes back thru pre-history, that men are entitled to sex without consequences. Something that women have never known.
 
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