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When is it ethically okay?

When is it ethically justified to abort?

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Lursa said:
As far as your post, the point that is most compelling and relevant to me is that, paraphrased, "this is how it works." Without further restrictions needed to impose this because...this is how it works.

And few if any want to get into the ethical/moral implications of creating laws that would use govt force to enable more.
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I've always thought we need to "lock it down" in order to protect women's rights. I remember when we were discussing the Canadian woman who could not obtain a late term abortion in Canada until she found a doctor who would do it -- in Canada -- they allow the doctors to decide. While I understand that it's not right to force a doctor to do something he/she is ethically opposed to -- I think that by setting the national standard, it would be easier to create a list of doctors who were willing.

We do have a good system here, but we need to keep bible beaters from encroaching on it. This is one case where state's rights really don't figure in. Not to me anyway, because abortion is a right -- or should be -- no matter where you live.

That's why I'm in favor of federal legislation that spell out the rights very clearly, and spell out that no state can remove those rights. Doctors everywhere would do abortions if the states would get out of the way.

But, that's just me. I know others disagree.
 
HowardBThiname said:
I've always thought we need to "lock it down" in order to protect women's rights. I remember when we were discussing the Canadian woman who could not obtain a late term abortion in Canada until she found a doctor who would do it -- in Canada -- they allow the doctors to decide. While I understand that it's not right to force a doctor to do something he/she is ethically opposed to -- I think that by setting the national standard, it would be easier to create a list of doctors who were willing.

We do have a good system here, but we need to keep bible beaters from encroaching on it. This is one case where state's rights really don't figure in. Not to me anyway, because abortion is a right -- or should be -- no matter where you live.

That's why I'm in favor of federal legislation that spell out the rights very clearly, and spell out that no state can remove those rights. Doctors everywhere would do abortions if the states would get out of the way.

But, that's just me. I know others disagree.
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As I posted earlier in post #157 of this thread I t takes a highly skilled doctor to perform an abortion past viability.

After about 20 weeks gestation the risk to woman’s life is so great that the risk of a stat c section has to greater to the woman than the risk of the abortion.

GYNs from all over the country send their patients with extreme cases past 20 weeks to one of the few doctors who is skilled enough to preform them.

There are only 3 clinics and 4 doctors in the US who perform these high risk abortions for these extreame cases.

In 2013, there were four doctors in the country who performed abortions after the 20th week of pregnancy, according to Slate. (Current numbers could be even lower.)

...

So Dr. Gunter supplied a few facts of her own. Only 1.3 percent of abortions happen at, or after, 21 weeks, she said, and 80 percent of those are the results of catastrophic defects with the fetus. Dr. Gunter continued with a powerful explanation of why women generally seek out procedures like a late-term abortion.

Sometimes it can take weeks or even longer to fully understand what is going on with the fetus. Some patients might think they can make it to term and then at 34 weeks cave and ask to be delivered because they just can’t bear one more person asking them about their baby. Do they just smile and walk away or say, 'Well, actually, my baby has no brain and will die at birth?' Some women go to term and others can’t. To judge these women for requesting an early delivery is cruel on so many levels.
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https://www.romper.com/p/which-stat...tions-they-are-very-difficult-to-access-21069
 
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Removable Mind said:
That’s hilarious.
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You from Austin? I grew up in North Austin, not a quarter mile from where a disgruntled man flew his plane into the IRS building. The father of one of my best childhood friends once owned the land that IRS building was built upon.
 
minnie616 said:
As I posted earlier in post #157 of this thread I t takes a highly skilled doctor to perform an abortion past viability.

After about 20 weeks gestation the risk to woman’s life is so great that the risk of a stat c section has to greater to the woman than the risk of the abortion.

GYNs from all over the country send their patients with extreme cases past 20 weeks to one of the few doctors who is skilled enough to preform them.

There are only 3 clinics and 4 doctors in the US who perform these high risk abortions for these extreame cases.



https://www.romper.com/p/which-stat...tions-they-are-very-difficult-to-access-21069
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I know that's true, but many other doctors could perform the procedures -- if their states allowed. Right now, it's all restricted. What needs to happen is that we get a federal law that supersedes state laws. As long as the woman (and/or pregnancy) met the federal requirements, a qualified doctor in her own state could do the procedure.

It would be like civil rights based on race -- states cannot infringe on those.
 
HowardBThiname said:
I know that's true, but many other doctors could perform the procedures -- if their states allowed. Right now, it's all restricted. What needs to happen is that we get a federal law that supersedes state laws. As long as the woman (and/or pregnancy) met the federal requirements, a qualified doctor in her own state could do the procedure.

It would be like civil rights based on race -- states cannot infringe on those.
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I agree state laws should not ban abortions before viability/24 weeks.

There are only about 100 cases a year in the US past 24 weeks.

There are few doctors who would qualified to perform an abortion past viability.
It is highly doubtful that many other doctors could perform these highly specialized abortions.

Doctors perform routine ultrasounds at about 18 to 20 weeks to find extreame fetal abnormalities. Giving the woman/couple and the doctor a couple weeks for further testing and to abort before viability if needed.

Once 24 weeks is reached abortion by dismemberment is too dangerous so the doctor has stop the heartbeat of the fetus with a lethal injection in the heart before inducing contractions. Once the fetus is dead than the doctor can start inducing the contractions. Since the fetus is dead the contractions are longer and more painful and it takes much longer to expel it. Theses cases usually take at least a couple of days to complete. Abortions past viabilly usually costs $15,000 or more and thats not including the woman’s travel expenses.
 
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minnie616 said:
I agree state laws should not ban abortions before viability/24 weeks.

There are only about 100 cases a year in the US past 24 weeks.

There are few doctors who would qualified to perform an abortion past viability.
It is highly doubtful that many other doctors could perform these highly specialized abortions.

Doctors perform routine ultrasounds at about 18 to 20 weeks to find extreame fetal abnormalities. Giving the woman/couple and the doctor a couple weeks for further testing and to abort before viability if needed.

Once 24 weeks is reached abortion by dismemberment is too dangerous so the doctor has stop the heartbeat of the fetus with a lethal injection in the heart before inducing contractions. Once the fetus is dead than the doctor can start inducing the contractions. Since the fetus is dead the contractions are longer and more painful and it takes much longer to expel it. Theses cases usually take at least a couple of days to complete. Abortions past viabilly usually costs $15,000 or more and thats not including the woman’s travel expenses.
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I don't think it would be much different from a woman who delivers a stillborn baby, such as my sister did. Her baby was full term but his umbilical cord ruptured and she went in when she hadn't feel him kicking. No telling how long he'd been dead -- 24 hours, maybe, but she was informed that she could have a c-sect, which she chose, or opt for natural birth, which could have involved delivering the baby in pieces, since it would be deteriorating.

That was a really tough time for her -- but I don't think a late term abort would be much different. Once the fetus dies, birth will naturally happen or a c-sect can be done.

I think virtually any doctor could do that -- deliver a dead fetus -- and also inject the serum to stop its heart. I just think the laws in various states are such that prohibit doctors from doing it. Plus, some might have reservations. But, if we had a federal law, the ones who were willing could all be on a list and women wouldn't have so far to go.
 
HowardBThiname said:
I don't think it would be much different from a woman who delivers a stillborn baby, such as my sister did. Her baby was full term but his umbilical cord ruptured and she went in when she hadn't feel him kicking. No telling how long he'd been dead -- 24 hours, maybe, but she was informed that she could have a c-sect, which she chose, or opt for natural birth, which could have involved delivering the baby in pieces, since it would be deteriorating.

That was a really tough time for her -- but I don't think a late term abort would be much different. Once the fetus dies, birth will naturally happen or a c-sect can be done.

I think virtually any doctor could do that -- deliver a dead fetus -- and also inject the serum to stop its heart. I just think the laws in various states are such that prohibit doctors from doing it. Plus, some might have reservations. But, if we had a federal law, the ones who were willing could all be on a list and women wouldn't have so far to go.
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So sorry about your sisters loss.


The injection takes a lot of skill is what I told. Now with new machines to actually view the heart while injecting the shot it might be easier. Also the clinic would need to able to remain opened and staffed 24 hours a day.



I have 4 born children. My 3rd child was delivered very quickly. My water broke and was discolored ( I knew that meant the fetus was stressed.) hard labor came right away and my husband rushed me to hospital. When I got there they took me right to delivery. The
Doctor did not have time to give any pain drugs. (In fact they took my info including asking about allergies after the delivery comleted.
The umbilical cord was around his neck and the doctor had to detangle it.)

Luckily he survived and other than being dyslexic ( which may or may not be a result of the umbilical cord around his neck) he was fine.

Before my pregnancy with him I miscarried a 20 week fetus that was very malformed.

I have to admit that the labor pains I had with the miscarriage were harder and more painful than any of my 4 children , including my 3 child who was overdue
 
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minnie616 said:
So sorry about your sisters loss.


The injection takes a lot of skill is what I told. Now with new machines to actually view the heart while injecting the shot it might be easier. Also the clinic would need to able to remain opened and staffed 24 hours a day.



I have 4 born children. My 3rd child was delivered very quickly. My water broke and was discolored ( I knew that meant the fetus was stressed.) hard labor came right away and my husband rushed me to hospital. When I got there they took me right to delivery. The
Doctor did not have time to give any pain drugs. (In fact they took my info including asking about allergies after the delivery comleted.
The umbilical cord was around his neck and the doctor had to detangle it.)

Luckily he survived and other than being dyslexic ( which may or may not be a result of the umbilical cord around his neck) he was fine.

Before my pregnancy with him I miscarried a 20 week fetus that was very malformed.

I have to admit that the labor pains I had with the miscarriage were harder and more painful than any of my 4 children , including my 3 child who was overdue
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Totally agree on hard pains with a miscarriage. Mine was at 14 weeks but it was still a killer. My doc at the time told me it was because the cervix hasn't softened at all with a miscarriage so the pain is intense. At 20 weeks, it would be even worse.

I'll bet you're right about the new technology making it a little simpler to inject into a fetus heart. On the other hand, I wonder why they couldn't cut the umbilical cord, similar to the rupture that killed my sister's baby? They told her that her baby's death would have been painless.
 
HowardBThiname said:
Totally agree on hard pains with a miscarriage. Mine was at 14 weeks but it was still a killer. My doc at the time told me it was because the cervix hasn't softened at all with a miscarriage so the pain is intense. At 20 weeks, it would be even worse.

I'll bet you're right about the new technology making it a little simpler to inject into a fetus heart. On the other hand, I wonder why they couldn't cut the umbilical cord, similar to the rupture that killed my sister's baby? They told her that her baby's death would have been painless.
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So sorry to learn about your miscarriage.

I don’t know why either.

But maybe since the cervix has not softened and the fetus is so large at 24 weeks the doctor cannot the instrument inside and reach the umbilical cord to cut it.
 
marke said:
Support for and against abortion should not be discussed outside of a Beliefs/Theology Forum?
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You’ve created a compound argument in which you expect or assume that everyone else is in sync with the moral formula by which you’ve constructed your beliefs regarding women’s reproductive roles and rights.

Your arguments have been pretty much emanating from your religious tenets. If your going to continue arguments in that vein, then they are subject to other arguments based on a different interpretation of your specific religion, or from a totally different religion, which teachings are not aligned with yours. Religious teachings can be way more controversial than issues on abortion.

In other words, you’ve made your arguments in a way that forces other members to focus on the fundamental tenets of “your religion” along with “your interpretations” of your religion - rather than the core arguments around women’s rights to choose how many children that she wants to have, or not have.

Conception has a host of life impacting consequences. Whether or not you agree with the methods used to address these consequences of conception, you need to grasp that individual women are entitled to act on their own moral foundation when they are faced with having to make a decision about the fate of their conception.
 
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If the mothers health is in danger at any time
If the mother was impregnated via rape/assault at no charge
If the mother and father both agree to abort for any other reason they choose during the first half of the pregnancy
 
DifferentDrummr said:
According to your own ethics, morals, philosophy, and values, under what circumstances to you believe it's right to end a pregnancy?
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Anytime at the mother's discretion and in accordance with the law.
 
DifferentDrummr said:
Just out of curiosity, how does the law play into your personal sense of ethics, morals, and values? Laws are very changeable.
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Great question, apparently you give some thought to the issue :)

To answer your question: I'm a law-abiding person and encourage others to do the same. Through the legal process, we all get to decide together what kind of society we want to be. Most of the policies that last in America are the policies that serve the most people well. I do have personal boundaries where, if the law broke my boundary, I would break the law, but that's a rare exeption. I would encourage one to take action within the law as much as possible and only break the law when absolutly necessary.

I wouldn't want the abortion of late-term pregnancies to become normal, for example, and so I support the existing limitation on abortion to be viability except in very rare cases. Speaking for my own morals, I feel that late-term abortion is to close to infanticide, something I would never condone at all. I put myself in the other person's place and I feel that if I were the woman considering an abortion, I wouldn't feel that viability was to short of a time to make my choice.
 
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Wayne Jr said:
Great question, apparently you give some thought to the issue :)

To answer your question: I'm a law-abiding person and encourage others to do the same. Through the legal process, we all get to decide together what kind of society we want to be. Most of the policies that last in America are the policies that serve the most people well. I do have personal boundaries where, if the law broke my boundary, I would break the law, but that's a rare exeption. I would encourage one to take action within the law as much as possible and only break the law when absolutly necessary.

I wouldn't want the abortion of late-term pregnancies to become normal, for example, and so I support the existing limitation on abortion to be viability except in very rare cases. Speaking for my own morals, I feel that late-term abortion is to close to infanticide, something I would never condone at all. I put myself in the other person's place and I feel that if I were the woman considering an abortion, I wouldn't feel that viability was to short of a time to make my choice.
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Well said , and I agree.

Abortions past viabilty in this country are extremely rare.

We have several states in the US that do not proscribe ( ban ) abortions past viability yet the only abortions performed past viabilty
Are the extreme cases. There are about 100 clinic abortions past 24 weeks ( the limit of viabilty ) per year in the US. There are only 4 doctors in the United States who perform these extremely rare abortions for these extreme cases. Doctors from all the US send their patients with these extreame conditions to one of those 4 doctors.
 
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